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Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL]
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epowell
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:04 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

GOT THE INPUT SHAFT OUT!

Seems the problem was 2 fold:
1) I couldn't pull up the collar high enough
2) the shaft was on there TIGHT

First I did some serious measuring and figured out a system by which I could know for sure if I had the collar high enough - because I don't have a small enough mirror to actually do this by sight.

Once I determined that my collar height was probably about 1 or 2mm shy, I marked the spot on the ring to be ground off.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next, took my dremel and shaved off a tiny fraction of metal.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next I put the tranny in 1st gear, and screwed in a couple of bolts into each flange - just snugging them down enough to render the ring motionless.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Next, grabbed my clutch disk to give me more leverage in turning the shaft >>> Mark said it might take some force, so I wasn't shy out it, and it knocked loose! Shocked Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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epowell
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 2:26 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I damaged the bore getting the mainshaft oil seal out Sad
I am thinking to fill that gap with a tiny bit of epoxy . ???
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

fixed the damage, will post pics later...

But for now, I am concerned about this PLAY in the input shaft... is this normal?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:55 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Bentley say to screw the input shaft in, then back off 1 spline before sliding the coupler over the splines. There should be some small wobble.

Mark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:46 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Bentley say to screw the input shaft in, then back off 1 spline before sliding the coupler over the splines. There should be some small wobble.


Yes, I read that in the Bentley Wink

My question now is if I should put grease inside the main shaft guide tube, AND inside the oil slinger?? I am trying to find it in the Bentley, but it's not clear.
I guess it is obvious that there should be grease inside the guide tube, but they say NO grease inside the "guide tube sleeve (plastic)"..... So I am guessing that that that plastic sleeve is the oil slinger? I think oil will get in there any way to lube it. If you put grease, that would mix with the gear oil because it is inside the tranny.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

AFIK, "guide tube" refers to that which literally guides the throw out (AKA "release") bearing:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I know some original parts were plastic because that's what was on the used '85 tranny that
my PO put in my 86 van. I've only seen metal replacement guides available, which I figure
is good because plastic parts are never great... Evil or Very Mad

Anyway, to your question...NO grease needed inside the guide tube, just a thin film on the
outside where the TOB rides. The oil slinger is the fluted metal part that's fitted tight into
the bellhousing, just inboard of the input shaft seal. NO grease at the oil slinger either.

Use a VERY thin film of grease at the base of the input shaft itself (where the seal will sit)
before the seal goes in place (then install the guide tube, the TOB, etc, etc...)

Cool

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Aha... thanks for clarifying. On my 2 spare trannies, one of the guide tubes is DRY on the inside, the other is greased. The input shaft is not supposed to touch the walls of that tube so yeah, I guess no grease is needed.

Thanks for those other clarifications!

My concern now is the circlip for putting the input shaft back in. Bentley says to replace always. I bent mine back small again and re-used, but it is very loose on there now and certainly it should be more tight > I just went to order some new ones but they won't be in until Tuesday > so I will have another look at mine..... I think that if the circlip is keeping that collar from moving then I will just keep it.
Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

First off... what do you guys think about this linkage pin and funky balls - the upper ball and the pin are obviously not stock. Any suggestions. Just try'em out?? Or transfer over the original versions from the other trans?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I was having a very hard time getting the main shaft oil seal out... and ended up drill too close to the edge - first time in my life removing a seal from an aluminum housing Shocked Shocked Shocked One little nick and that drill bit went thru the aluminum like butter!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


...and left this gouge.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


so I put some epoxy in there...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


then put some sandpaper on a round cap of similar size to the bore...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and sanded it smooth... added some liquid CA glue > let dry, and sanded again.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the main shaft seal before replacing > certainly it was leaking. Nice and wet.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I don't have new circlips so I bent the old ones back to shape, then one on the shaft - installing it by putting it on from the top of the shaft downwards... but all that bending just bent the clip too loose...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So I ran to the shop but they didn't have any and can't get them til Tuesday...
...then it occurred to me that the problem was that I was forcing the clip to go over the most thick part of the shaft (22mm thick), but if I just installed the clip from the bottom I could avoid that thick part and only have to widen it 18mm... so I tried that and the result is the circlip did not widen again, and now it is nice and snug Smile Smile
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I got the next tranny all swapped in there, and now ready to go for a test drive.... All in all I am optimistic except for one thing. The entire shift linkage is sitting a couple of mm's too high. I guess that means that for some reason the tranny itself is sitting 2mm's too high. 3rd gear is damn close to rubbing (the linkage bar against the frame cross-member). The one possible fix I think could be to put washers between the nose mount and the frame cross-member > where there are those 4X13mm bolts. That would help.... ...on the other hand, once I start driving the tranny might "settle down" 1mm or so. . . So I will test it out first.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Is this the same complete nose mount moved over from the previous tranny?


The shift rod guide pin that bolts to the ear of the tranny can get bent. If that bend is UP, it will cause the shift rod to be higher. If you loosen the nut that holds the guide pin you can fully rotate the guide pin to see if the shift rod moves up and down as the pin rotates. It should NOT. If it does the pin is bent.

Mark
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I applaud your willingness to dive in to unknown (to you) territory, but highly recommend that you take things a bit slower and with a bit more care.

I hope all goes well as you progress and that that seal doesn't leak
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:53 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Is this the same complete nose mount moved over from the previous tranny?

The shift rod guide pin that bolts to the ear of the tranny can get bent.


Yes exactly the same nose mount.
Yes I am aware of the "bent pin syndrome". My pin is not bent... this is not the issue.

I just got back from a long test drive and the box works great!

In truth the box is now, compared to the previous swap-in, 2 or 3mm further towards the rear of the van (this does not seem to affect shifting, and in fact now I could put the "pin boot" back on because there is now 2 or 3mm free space at the end of the pin), and 2 or 3mm higher... this extra height DOES indeed affect shifting - in 3rd it is rubbing a bit. The linkage rod is slightly rubbing the frame member when in 3rd > I want to correct this.

So I am thinking to lower the box 2mm... I am thinking to put washers between nose mount and the frame where there are those 4 bolts. This would lower the tranny height 2mm and that should be enough.... is there any reason why I shouldn't do this?

[one other possible concern I have is the engine mounts > I am not sure if this is an issue, but this time I loosened them more than last time - I loosened quite a bit, and I suspect that maybe now those mounts are not as aligned as they should be... probably this is a non-issue, but suspecting that some of these variations in tranny positions between tranny swaps (all 3 have ended up in significantly different positions), might have something to do with things shifting around in those engine mounts.]
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:57 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Gizmoman wrote:
I applaud your willingness to dive in to unknown (to you) territory, but highly recommend that you take things a bit slower and with a bit more care.

I hope all goes well as you progress and that that seal doesn't leak


I know, I really goofed up on that seal... I am not very experienced with removing seals that way with aluminum housings - I was shocked at how UNFORGIVING aluminum is to drill bits. You barely breathe on aluminum and it cuts into it!!! Anyway, I am confident the repair will work. I took my time with that and shaped it very accurately, and the epoxy/CA combo will be probably harder than the aluminum... so I can't see how there can be an issue. Fingers crossed!
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
Gizmoman wrote:
I applaud your willingness to dive in to unknown (to you) territory, but highly recommend that you take things a bit slower and with a bit more care.

I hope all goes well as you progress and that that seal doesn't leak


I know, I really goofed up on that seal... I am not very experienced with removing seals that way with aluminum housings - I was shocked at how UNFORGIVING aluminum is to drill bits. You barely breathe on aluminum and it cuts into it!!! Anyway, I am confident the repair will work. I took my time with that and shaped it very accurately, and the epoxy/CA combo will be probably harder than the aluminum... so I can't see how there can be an issue. Fingers crossed!

Agreed, you did a fine job on the repair. My only concern is that aluminum changes size quite a bit more than what you fixed it with. The ideal solution would be to have tigged the area and either sanded the weld bead or have it machined. Who know though, you may be fine.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Gizmoman wrote:
My only concern is that aluminum changes size quite a bit more than what you fixed it with.


Yes you are right- I didn't consider that. That repaired area is squeezed extremely tightly by the seal, but yes, over time some micro cracks might appear due to temp. changes over time. Next time I have the box out I will check that seal very closely... AND if I notice any clutch slippage at all, this might be the likely culprit - good thing is that I do have 2 other working bellhousings so a swap is always possible. >>> as it was this seal was already very wet - clearly leaking. But it was not noticeable with the guide tube installed.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I put the 2mm washers under the nose mount plate and this lowered the tranny just enough to stop the rubbing in 3rd. But I was still not completely satisfied with the linkage, so I dug out another linkage (end piece) I had from MAX (from Dresden)
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


My original is the darker one below... Max's linkage didn't work at all > it's obvious now that I look at it, with those bends... I think this linkage must be for a DK, someone said the air-cooled tranny sits much lower.

Anyhow I put the original linkage back in and spent a lot of time tweeking it and think I now have it the best it can be, then went for another test drive.

So far I would say that this swap#2 is not as good a tranny as swap#1 was. The swap#2 is probably about as good as my original tranny. Working well, but not consistently going into gear seamlessly. There is no grinding whatsoever, but sometimes there is a bit on noise when going into gear - sometimes not. Maybe I need to get used to it... but swap#1 seemed to be in better condition.

The question for myself now is if I should put swap#1 back in since it seems to be the best tranny I have. My feeling is that this swap#2 is not on the verge of breaking or something. . . . but seems closer to a break-down than swap#1.
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 5:18 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Did another test drive this morning... and I have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do is to put SWAP#1 back in - with top quality gear oil, and most likely leave it there for quite a while.

I think that SWAP#1 is for sure the best - all shifting is smooth.

The ORIGINAL BOX is second best. This one shifts totally fine except a bit of noise going between 2nd and 3rd.

SWAP#2, is still a good working box but I'd say it is the most worn out of the 3. When UPSHIFTING to 2nd it very often gives noise. Also upshifting to 3rd is sometimes noisy... and occasionally upshifting to 4th there's a bit of noise. Downshifting is usually always fine. So I guess the synchronizers are starting to 'go' on this box. If it would be my only box I would still feel OK about running it - but it makes most sense to me to swap back in SWAP#1 since I was very happy all-round with that one.

Any suggestions regarding the best oil?
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

Yesterday I managed to swap back in TRANNY SWAP#1. As I said in my previous post, it seemed to me like SWAP#2 was not as good as SWAP#1 so I put #1 back in.

....now I have a question:

The thing that I concerned me the most about SWAP#2 is that it very commonly "THUNKED" into 2nd from 1st. This was my main concern. I was no "GRINDING" but rather "THUNKING". Now the very weird thing is that now that I have SWAP#1 back in, this SWAP#1 seems to be doing the same thing that SWAP#2 was doing and I don't think it was doing it before! So it struck my that this "THUNKING" might not be because of the tranny - but rather something that I have done while installing.
So the only differences which I can think of are these:
1) changed input shaft (previously on SWAP#1 the input shaft was screwed on too tight, but now I backed it off 1 spline... maybe something in how I installed the input shaft is causing this weird shifting?
2) changed input shaft oil seal
3) changed THROW-OUT BEARING
4) swapped the "shift balls" (but made sure to install them 90* straight)

So my guess is that either I am imagining this similar weird shifting defect - or it has something to do with the way I installed the INPUT SHAFT.

Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

I think the problem was a bent linkage pin (I know Mark warned me of this... mine was a little bit bent but I used this bend to get the linkage rod to ride a bit lower to avoid the frame)... I put a very straight one on and shifting seems better, but now the linkage rod is rubbing strongly against the frame...

Does anyone know any way to get the linkage rod to ride a few MMs lower??
Any tricks there?
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Swapping gearboxes: how to? ['81 DIESEL] Reply with quote

The entire linkage including nose mount is a hack from start to finish.

I took a grinder to the rod and shaved off a couple of MMs, and everything is workinga lot better now. I'm still a bit concerned about 1st to 2nd.... but it is better now for sure. It seems that between 1st and 2nd it likes a quick shift, but between 2nd and 3rd it likes a very slow and gentle shift.

Does this look like normal SLAVE functioning?:

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