Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
WBX Weak Links?
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bugguy1967
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4338
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:54 pm    Post subject: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Hey. Sorry if it's been covered before. I'm thinking about building a WBX up for high performance use. Are there any weak links? How far can the liners be bored until they get too thin? Are there any coolant sealing issues?
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mikemtnbike
Samba Member


Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2778
Location: North Carolina
mikemtnbike is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Rocky Jenning Enterprises is generally regarded as one of the expert shops on the WBX and, if I read his classified ad here right, he sells kits to take the WBX up to 2.3, sells the motors for sure. I'd try calling him on the phone to talk about his kits if I were you. GoWesty also sells kits to take the motors up to 2.45.

I hope to buy a RJE motor in about 2 years. But, that's just my thought today, may change tomorrow.

"Coolant sealing issues." The large waterjacket seal between the heads and block can develop leaks, sure. It's not that bad to fix and if you actually change your coolant every 2 years, should be much less likely to do so. The bigger problem on most people's vans now is that the whole complicated spaghetti mess of hoses and O-rings is old and will fail at some point. Early in my van ownership, I had roadside failures of my thermostat housing and the tiny hoses coming off my oil cooler. I THINK I've replaced and/or reinforced every part now in the system, but that's the true weak link now- aging components.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled Sad https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17007
Location: Retired South Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
Hey. Sorry if it's been covered before. I'm thinking about building a WBX up for high performance use. Are there any weak links? How far can the liners be bored until they get too thin? Are there any coolant sealing issues?


Could you elaborate on the high performance use? There is a recent thread regarding getting 300 hp out of a wbx engine, but I recall a turbo charger is involved.
_________________
☮️
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jberger
Samba Member


Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476

jberger is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Spend some time reading the oxyboxer forum on shoptalkforums. That'll give you what you need. It's a slippery slope Very Happy

J
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12103
Location: Port Manteau
Zeitgeist 13 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Personally, rather than embiggening the engine, I like Marco Mansi's approach. He uses mostly stock 2.1 bottom ends, some head work, and then a turbo and engine management on top of all that. If I were to go back to the WBX, that's exactly what I'd do. It sounds like all the power and reliability I'd require in a van.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.


Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4532
Location: Arizona Highways
borninabus is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

this isn't a V8, you don't "bore out the liners". just like an air cooled, you get a bigger piston/cylinder set. Laughing
_________________
71 Ghia A/S - 88 Van A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jberger
Samba Member


Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476

jberger is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

borninabus wrote:
this isn't a V8, you don't "bore out the liners". just like an air cooled, you get a bigger piston/cylinder set. Laughing


Or you bore out the liners.. just sayin

Cause the aftermarket cylinders are garbage.

J
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12103
Location: Port Manteau
Zeitgeist 13 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

That's the first I've heard of boring the liners. How do you clamp the liners solidly without introducing distortion? I'm not questioning the validity of this approach, but rather just curious whether this is something your typical automotive machine shop is equipped to handle.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bobbyblack Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4332
Location: United States, Iowa
bobbyblack is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
Could you elaborate on the high performance use?


Indeed the best question asked thus far. For me, getting another 20%-25% would be "high performance" from a stock 2.1. This is totally possible with the Marco injectors plus the Corkins exhaust plus RJE's 1.25-1 rockers.

Another 10% or 20% could be had from the RJE 2.2 slip in piston/cylinder kit and a performance cam. More yet from a bore and stroke kit from any of the vendors.

Always consider what the stock head is and does. RJE will do you right with their head job.

Anyway, if you don't think these kind of small changes are "Performance level", you'd probably be looking at a Subistuff engine and trans option. Get the Turbo kit option.

I'll cheer on Marco on his Turbo kit, but its been a while since we have heard about progress on that project.

All in perspective.
_________________
'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member


Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12103
Location: Port Manteau
Zeitgeist 13 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Marco is more active on FB. He's still working on his kit. Eff Fuji
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugguy1967
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4338
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

I've built a lot of type 1s before. This layout is similar. I also have access to a very good machine shop in my neighborhood. I wouldn't need a kit necessarily. I usually order my pistons from JE, and DPR can offset-grind a crank to any stroke I need.

Boring is simple. I have torque plates to clamp the barrels in. If the WBX needed its' own special setup, I'd make it. I often bore AA thickwall barrels to 96mm. Just wondering if the stock WBX liner is thick enough to accept 2mm o/s. Jberger hit it on the nose. AA's liner material is garbage, but I do what I can with it. I'd prefer to machine a seasoned set of original WBX liners.

It would go in a Bug, not a Westy. My definition of high performance? Something with a high cranking compression, individual runners, a matched header system, 6,000+ rpm powerband, etc etc. I'd mod everything the same way I would a type 1.

I was mainly concerned about sealing of the coolant from the combustion chamber. I don't understand how the head seals.
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jberger
Samba Member


Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476

jberger is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

bugguy1967 wrote:
I've built a lot of type 1s before. This layout is similar. I also have access to a very good machine shop in my neighborhood. I wouldn't need a kit necessarily. I usually order my pistons from JE, and DPR can offset-grind a crank to any stroke I need.

Boring is simple. I have torque plates to clamp the barrels in. If the WBX needed its' own special setup, I'd make it. I often bore AA thickwall barrels to 96mm. Just wondering if the stock WBX liner is thick enough to accept 2mm o/s. Jberger hit it on the nose. AA's liner material is garbage, but I do what I can with it. I'd prefer to machine a seasoned set of original WBX liners.

It would go in a Bug, not a Westy. My definition of high performance? Something with a high cranking compression, individual runners, a matched header system, 6,000+ rpm powerband, etc etc. I'd mod everything the same way I would a type 1.

I was mainly concerned about sealing of the coolant from the combustion chamber. I don't understand how the head seals.


Very thoughtful post. Do check out shoptalkforums... MANY of these engines have been built and shoved into bugs... and railed. I keep thinking I want to do the same to my '65. The OE slugs are VERY good quality. Just bore them slowly.

J
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
mikemtnbike
Samba Member


Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2778
Location: North Carolina
mikemtnbike is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Yeah, that shoptalkforum is a total rabbit hole I had to stop myself earlier today. The bug world is a different planet.
_________________
1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled Sad https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugguy1967
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4338
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

Cool, thanks.
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
vanagonjr
Samba Member


Joined: October 07, 2010
Posts: 3424
Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
vanagonjr is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

If you wanted a spare set of liners to bore, I probably have a set I can sell.
There certainly have been some wild bugs built with the wasserboxer.
_________________
John - 86 Wolfsburg Westfalia "Weekender"
Flint reversed 1.8T W/Passat 5-Speed
LiMBO (late model bus club) www.limbobus.org
LiMBO is on Facebook too! https://www.facebook.com/groups/
FAQ thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=525798
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
leecat
Samba Member


Joined: September 13, 2012
Posts: 773
Location: Regina
leecat is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:55 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

There are only 3 easy steps to a quality WBX engine:

1. Remove WBX engine
2. Install a better, modern engine
3. Throw WBX engine in garbage

*runs from pitchfork-and-torch-wielding fanatics wearing 'WBX Forever' T-shirts*
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
4Gears4Tires
Samba Member


Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 2982
Location: MD
4Gears4Tires is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:03 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

^ That was my first thought.

"Weak links? Hmm, pretty sure it's the engine."
_________________
'87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
dhaavers
Samba Member


Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7733
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
dhaavers is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:01 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

^^^ Laughing Laughing Laughing

WBX be like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Owner be like:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Wink Cool

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"

<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
bugguy1967
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4338
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

What are the metallic rings made out of that go between the barrel and head?
_________________
"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Bulli Klinik
Samba Member


Joined: January 16, 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
Bulli Klinik is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? Reply with quote

I believe that they are copper. If not, I think that any annealed copper head gasket would work as long as you're keeping combustion in. They work on high compression, air-cooled motors, so why not? As I'm sure you know, 94's are common and I would imagine that a larger bore is available.

I like where you're going with this and surprised that the WBX hasn't been developed more. If you can nail the cylinder height to seal both the combustion chamber and the water jacket while maxing out stroke and bore you will get more torque and power. A set of heads with the right combination of valve size and porting as well as some decent carbs and a performance, T1 valve train should make very good power.

Air-cooled builders have manage incredible hp:cubic inch numbers which surpass even modern Subi's. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with the WBX platform. Never mind the fact that you can pick up a used WBX core for what set of rods cost.

Please be sure to post your progress. Not everyone want's a junkyard Subi in their VW.
_________________
I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2023, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB
Links to eBay or other vendor sites may be affiliate links where the site receives compensation.