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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:54 pm Post subject: WBX Weak Links? |
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Hey. Sorry if it's been covered before. I'm thinking about building a WBX up for high performance use. Are there any weak links? How far can the liners be bored until they get too thin? Are there any coolant sealing issues? _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2778 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:40 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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Rocky Jenning Enterprises is generally regarded as one of the expert shops on the WBX and, if I read his classified ad here right, he sells kits to take the WBX up to 2.3, sells the motors for sure. I'd try calling him on the phone to talk about his kits if I were you. GoWesty also sells kits to take the motors up to 2.45.
I hope to buy a RJE motor in about 2 years. But, that's just my thought today, may change tomorrow.
"Coolant sealing issues." The large waterjacket seal between the heads and block can develop leaks, sure. It's not that bad to fix and if you actually change your coolant every 2 years, should be much less likely to do so. The bigger problem on most people's vans now is that the whole complicated spaghetti mess of hoses and O-rings is old and will fail at some point. Early in my van ownership, I had roadside failures of my thermostat housing and the tiny hoses coming off my oil cooler. I THINK I've replaced and/or reinforced every part now in the system, but that's the true weak link now- aging components. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17007 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 5:40 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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bugguy1967 wrote: |
Hey. Sorry if it's been covered before. I'm thinking about building a WBX up for high performance use. Are there any weak links? How far can the liners be bored until they get too thin? Are there any coolant sealing issues? |
Could you elaborate on the high performance use? There is a recent thread regarding getting 300 hp out of a wbx engine, but I recall a turbo charger is involved. _________________ ☮️ |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:36 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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Spend some time reading the oxyboxer forum on shoptalkforums. That'll give you what you need. It's a slippery slope
J |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:09 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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Personally, rather than embiggening the engine, I like Marco Mansi's approach. He uses mostly stock 2.1 bottom ends, some head work, and then a turbo and engine management on top of all that. If I were to go back to the WBX, that's exactly what I'd do. It sounds like all the power and reliability I'd require in a van. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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borninabus Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4532 Location: Arizona Highways
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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this isn't a V8, you don't "bore out the liners". just like an air cooled, you get a bigger piston/cylinder set. _________________ 71 Ghia A/S - 88 Van A/T - 13 JSW TDI 6M/T |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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borninabus wrote: |
this isn't a V8, you don't "bore out the liners". just like an air cooled, you get a bigger piston/cylinder set. |
Or you bore out the liners.. just sayin
Cause the aftermarket cylinders are garbage.
J |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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That's the first I've heard of boring the liners. How do you clamp the liners solidly without introducing distortion? I'm not questioning the validity of this approach, but rather just curious whether this is something your typical automotive machine shop is equipped to handle. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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bobbyblack Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015 Posts: 4332 Location: United States, Iowa
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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MarkWard wrote: |
Could you elaborate on the high performance use? |
Indeed the best question asked thus far. For me, getting another 20%-25% would be "high performance" from a stock 2.1. This is totally possible with the Marco injectors plus the Corkins exhaust plus RJE's 1.25-1 rockers.
Another 10% or 20% could be had from the RJE 2.2 slip in piston/cylinder kit and a performance cam. More yet from a bore and stroke kit from any of the vendors.
Always consider what the stock head is and does. RJE will do you right with their head job.
Anyway, if you don't think these kind of small changes are "Performance level", you'd probably be looking at a Subistuff engine and trans option. Get the Turbo kit option.
I'll cheer on Marco on his Turbo kit, but its been a while since we have heard about progress on that project.
All in perspective. _________________ '87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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Marco is more active on FB. He's still working on his kit. Eff Fuji _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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I've built a lot of type 1s before. This layout is similar. I also have access to a very good machine shop in my neighborhood. I wouldn't need a kit necessarily. I usually order my pistons from JE, and DPR can offset-grind a crank to any stroke I need.
Boring is simple. I have torque plates to clamp the barrels in. If the WBX needed its' own special setup, I'd make it. I often bore AA thickwall barrels to 96mm. Just wondering if the stock WBX liner is thick enough to accept 2mm o/s. Jberger hit it on the nose. AA's liner material is garbage, but I do what I can with it. I'd prefer to machine a seasoned set of original WBX liners.
It would go in a Bug, not a Westy. My definition of high performance? Something with a high cranking compression, individual runners, a matched header system, 6,000+ rpm powerband, etc etc. I'd mod everything the same way I would a type 1.
I was mainly concerned about sealing of the coolant from the combustion chamber. I don't understand how the head seals. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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bugguy1967 wrote: |
I've built a lot of type 1s before. This layout is similar. I also have access to a very good machine shop in my neighborhood. I wouldn't need a kit necessarily. I usually order my pistons from JE, and DPR can offset-grind a crank to any stroke I need.
Boring is simple. I have torque plates to clamp the barrels in. If the WBX needed its' own special setup, I'd make it. I often bore AA thickwall barrels to 96mm. Just wondering if the stock WBX liner is thick enough to accept 2mm o/s. Jberger hit it on the nose. AA's liner material is garbage, but I do what I can with it. I'd prefer to machine a seasoned set of original WBX liners.
It would go in a Bug, not a Westy. My definition of high performance? Something with a high cranking compression, individual runners, a matched header system, 6,000+ rpm powerband, etc etc. I'd mod everything the same way I would a type 1.
I was mainly concerned about sealing of the coolant from the combustion chamber. I don't understand how the head seals. |
Very thoughtful post. Do check out shoptalkforums... MANY of these engines have been built and shoved into bugs... and railed. I keep thinking I want to do the same to my '65. The OE slugs are VERY good quality. Just bore them slowly.
J |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2778 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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Yeah, that shoptalkforum is a total rabbit hole I had to stop myself earlier today. The bug world is a different planet. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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Cool, thanks. _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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vanagonjr Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2010 Posts: 3424 Location: Dartmouth, Mass.
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leecat Samba Member
Joined: September 13, 2012 Posts: 773 Location: Regina
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:55 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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There are only 3 easy steps to a quality WBX engine:
1. Remove WBX engine
2. Install a better, modern engine
3. Throw WBX engine in garbage
*runs from pitchfork-and-torch-wielding fanatics wearing 'WBX Forever' T-shirts* |
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4Gears4Tires Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018 Posts: 2982 Location: MD
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:03 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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^ That was my first thought.
"Weak links? Hmm, pretty sure it's the engine." _________________ '87 Syncro
Ferric Oxyhydroxide Superleggera Edition |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7733 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:01 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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^^^
WBX be like:
Owner be like:
- Dave _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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bugguy1967 Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008 Posts: 4338 Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:57 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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What are the metallic rings made out of that go between the barrel and head? _________________ "A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine" |
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Bulli Klinik Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: Bulli Klinik, Colorado Springs
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Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:27 am Post subject: Re: WBX Weak Links? |
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I believe that they are copper. If not, I think that any annealed copper head gasket would work as long as you're keeping combustion in. They work on high compression, air-cooled motors, so why not? As I'm sure you know, 94's are common and I would imagine that a larger bore is available.
I like where you're going with this and surprised that the WBX hasn't been developed more. If you can nail the cylinder height to seal both the combustion chamber and the water jacket while maxing out stroke and bore you will get more torque and power. A set of heads with the right combination of valve size and porting as well as some decent carbs and a performance, T1 valve train should make very good power.
Air-cooled builders have manage incredible hp:cubic inch numbers which surpass even modern Subi's. I don't see why you couldn't do the same with the WBX platform. Never mind the fact that you can pick up a used WBX core for what set of rods cost.
Please be sure to post your progress. Not everyone want's a junkyard Subi in their VW. _________________ I've never met a Bus I didn't like.
Mike K
Bulli Klinik
Colorado Springs |
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