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FreeBug Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012 Posts: 4278 Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:03 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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scubaseas wrote: |
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Any other thoughts on swarf prevention?
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Put grease on the drill bit and the tap. Shop vac hose over the drilling area helps too |
Not prevention, but evacuation: I like to have an air blow gun with a super-long nozzle you can insert PAST the swarf area, thus blowing it outwards only. |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:48 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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I have retorqued many engines over the years, mostly mystery engines. On my own personal builds they get dropped and inspected at 10K miles which includes checking head torque. On builds using new heads/case/studa the torque has always been right on, with used or new aftermarket parts it varies. With quality machine work its better but not perfect. I personally think as mentioned earlier that the heat the parts were exposed to has a lot more to do with keeping things in tolerance.
At the shop I worked at in the past the old man would retorque head studs on customers cars that got the full warranty (2 year, 30K mile) after 100 miles. I really was not that surprised to see them take some torque after observing the caveman machine work they did with a drill press and hand drill. A few of the cases did pull case savers like the OP but these were on refurbished used parts with unk history. He also did the 'overtorque' test to see if the studs/savers would streatch/pull, when they did new oversized savers or different used studs would go in as needed.
The only time Ive seen new parts take a retorque was in high compression builds (10.5 and up). Not sure if it was the compression itself or the heat associated with it that got things a little loose. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76760 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:52 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
At the shop I worked at in the past the old man would retorque head studs on customers cars that got the full warranty (2 year, 30K mile) after 100 miles. |
So after 100 miles he removed the engine, removed the intake manifold and upper tins along with the rockers to re-torque the heads?
And all of this was done as part of the included service on a engine build?
He sure didn't do it for free. _________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
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Frank Bassman Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2012 Posts: 892 Location: Miami
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:40 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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I'm sure if he did it was actually worth the $550
-Frank |
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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Glenn wrote: |
AlteWagen wrote: |
At the shop I worked at in the past the old man would retorque head studs on customers cars that got the full warranty (2 year, 30K mile) after 100 miles. |
So after 100 miles he removed the engine, removed the intake manifold and upper tins along with the rockers to re-torque the heads?
And all of this was done as part of the included service on a engine build?
He sure didn't do it for free. |
Yes the car would come in, drop the oil and inspect, drop the engine and check valve lash, compression test, pull the tin, inspect oil cooler seals and address any other oil leaks. Heads got torqued as did the gland nut. Re assemble, tune on run stand and reinstall.
If the customer wanted rebuilt parts and purchased the extra warranty ($250 on a $1250 turn key) it got the whole rundown. New heads automatically got the extended warranty but did not get the retorque and only got dropped if cooler or main seal leak or oil showed something screwy. They also included a oil temp gauge at that level which I thought was a good preventative measure.
The removal of the old engine and install of the new was also $250 so Frank was not far off at $550.
To watch these old guys work was amazing, 2 of them would start working on it and all would be done in a few hours. Some times the customer would just head over to the parts side and wait for the service and just shoot the shit. Most times they would buy more accessories while they waited.
While the majority of engine buyers were guys with little cash and doing all the work themselves so the only warranty available was the 6 month 6000 miles on the referbished heads, 1 year 12000 miles on new head builds. After the install the customer had to come in to verify mileage for warranty. Never had any comebacks on the full service customers, broke dicks always had issues. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:39 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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I've never retorqued a head in 30+ years of building engines, never had a problem.
I guess I could see doing it if I was building an engine without head stud inserts.....but I would never build an engine without head stud inserts.
Also, to the OP, you need to buy a lottery ticket. Do you know the odds of pulling a steel insert out of a new case with 18ft/lbs of torque? Yeah, neither do I but I'm guessing it's in the range of being struck by lightening.......twice......on the same night. _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
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AlteWagen Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007 Posts: 8498 Location: PNW
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:12 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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I tried to find the post but there is a guy in the mid west building engines and he complained that the new Rima cases were softer than the old brazil cases, and the machine work had issues. The most common being case centerline being way off from one side to another. Another post was from a guy that pulled the threads out of the fuel pump mounts and the alt stand threads just using a regular short wrench.
This thread is the 3rd complaint Ive read about pulling threads on a brand new case.
I dont think the OP is that lucky, its that we are equally unlucky with the state of the industry. I think the reason some builders dont hear any feedback is due to the fact most VW are lucky to get 2K miles a year on them so any issues will not be seen for years. Those who actually put serious miles on their cars build their own engines due to shady vendors that have caused the lack of trust. I find individuals experience more in line with what is really happening in the market.
Ive seen two people within the last few years have bad engine experience from a major vendor and refuse to put bad feedback as they are too embarrassed about being taken for so much $ and dont want to deal with the vendors out of control behavior when someone has a legitimate complaint. Instead they sold their cars and left the hobby. This senario has been on the rise for the last 10 years or so and just like empi many vendors just claim 'you are the first to complain about this problem' while the customer knows better and just gets fed up.
The hobby is close to death and vendors are just vultures picking the bones these days. _________________ Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
The hobby is close to death and vendors are just vultures picking the bones these days. |
I agree somewhat. I have about 24 hours into JUST a top end on a 1915 I am freshening up for a client. granted, that includes some tin work and other misc b/s to hand the client back a "turn key" engine.
the hours that go into correcting parts issues makes it so the juice isn't worth the squeeze anymore. there are some that build a quality product and stand behind what they do, but too often many shop on price...and can't believe a stock build could cost 5k without tins etc...
I'm doing another bay camper at the moment. 1700 for a NEW shortblock is hard to beat.
I have given up trying to explain the insane cost and time involved to build an aircooled anymore. that, and they have 2019 expectations on a 80 year old design _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6936 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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If it is the stud that is circled in red on the picture on the first page of this thread, JAD says you better tear the engine down. As stated by others here, you’ll never be able to do it without getting shavings in the case. _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13385 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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AlteWagen wrote: |
Ive seen two people within the last few years have bad engine experience from a major vendor and refuse to put bad feedback as they are too embarrassed about being taken for so much $ and dont want to deal with the vendors out of control behavior when someone has a legitimate complaint. Instead they sold their cars and left the hobby. This senario has been on the rise for the last 10 years or so and just like empi many vendors just claim 'you are the first to complain about this problem' while the customer knows better and just gets fed up.
The hobby is close to death and vendors are just vultures picking the bones these days. |
I agree that it's certainly getting harder for folks who don't have the skill set to work on their VW or build their own engine to find honest, integrity driven shops that still work on these old VW's. We all see many of the remaining shops that advertise on The Samba get flamed in their feedback threads for shoddy work, not meeting promised delivery times, poor integrity, etc.
These shops that work on these old VW's can't make much profit margins when factoring in making the terrible parts sold today fit or work. If I couldn't do my own work on my VW's, I wouldn't own them.
When the time comes that I don't want to work on my VW's anymore, I'll either let a trusted VW friend who I trust work on them or I'll sell them. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16926 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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When the time comes that I don't want to work on my VW's anymore, I'll either let a trusted VW friend who I trust work on them or I'll sell them.
Id be honored. Just kidding bro because you’ll be digging my grave _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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wcfvw69 wrote: |
When the time comes that I don't want to work on my VW's anymore, I'll either let a trusted VW friend who I trust work on them or I'll sell them. |
lucky for you, I know a few guys who do house calls _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:43 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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There are some good points in this thread and also some that are WAY off base. Very good discussion.
Here is one thing I can tell you with 100% certainty. This industry is nowhere close to death. As I converse with most of the bigger companies/importers on a weekly basis, I can tell you that sales have been very good lately. If sales were dropping every month and companies were scared that the industry was going to go away, they wouldn't be dropping so much money in R & D for new and/or updated products.
That being said, it may APPEAR from an outsider perspective that the industry is dying because so many smaller businesses have gone out of business that were VW only. In my opinion, this has given rise to a few things, some good and some bad. The good thing is that a lot more people are working on their own cars. The bad thing is that a lot of established shops that have never worked on a VW are taking in VW work. For example, I had a shop buy a stock complete motor and once he got it in and driving, he called to complain that it was too slow. After asking him some questions, not only had he never worked on an aircooled VW before, he never even rode in one and had no idea a 56hp engine wasn't fast. It's also hard because the VW shops that are good are VERY busy and have long wait times to get things done.
Not to get into a huge country wide employment and skill discussion but I will tell you this. From regular car shops to specialty shops to machine shops, it has never been more difficult to find competent workers. Why do you think I build most of the engines? Why do you think my 70 year old father comes in 3 days a week to help me build? We simply can't find anyone that will put in the detail oriented work that we will to ensure that the motors are of the highest quality. As someone said earlier, the amount of reengineering necessary to build a quality motor with the parts available is at an all time high. If I didn't have a machine to fix and/or remachine cranks, rods, cams, lifters, cases, flywheels, heads, etc; there is no way I could do this. The most common thing I say when I am building is, "I have no idea how someone could order all these parts and put this engine together in their basement."
Ok....I should probably go work on an engine now _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:08 am Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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[email protected] wrote: |
There are some good points in this thread and also some that are WAY off base. Very good discussion.
Here is one thing I can tell you with 100% certainty. This industry is nowhere close to death. As I converse with most of the bigger companies/importers on a weekly basis, I can tell you that sales have been very good lately. If sales were dropping every month and companies were scared that the industry was going to go away, they wouldn't be dropping so much money in R & D for new and/or updated products |
that may be, and I will play devils advocate here. if they were turning out quality stuff, I bet the #'s would drop. if you make some junk and it blows up, someone will re purchase said junk...the cycle repeats
example: a new Volvo axle is about 900.00 but I can get a FEQ for 105. they are junk/shake right out of the box. yet bottom feeder shops will use them...and keep replacing them until they find a good one...which then will die in 14 months....now you have a client who 1) questions why they got 120k out of a original axle and how come this one only lasted 8k and 2) think your shady.
so of course the #'s will be "good" when you pedal junk based on cost and not quality. how many people have said "I can buy 10 of those sockets at harbor freight vs 1 from snap on"? so people will buy more of the cheaper one...every time. it's a false economy
[email protected] wrote: |
Not to get into a huge country wide employment and skill discussion but I will tell you this. From regular car shops to specialty shops to machine shops, it has never been more difficult to find competent workers. |
here is why...(at least in my world)
everyone in automotive is stuck in the 80's. the new pay plans at the dealers suck, techs work 45-60 hours to flag 30 if they are lucky and might get paid 20-25/hr if they are really lucky.... so add up the cost of tools etc and you can cut grass for the state for 24/hr, 12 paid holidays and a retirement plan.
the industry has basically priced good talent out of the market. why would anyone go to work for 20/hr when the posted labor rate is 105+ with little to no benefits? you can't hammer a nail from india...yet trades that need talent in front of them, in house on a daily basis seem to think they will have a line of folks out the door for pennies on the dollar.
there has been a mass exodus of mechanics/techs/machinists to go work for bigger industries with better compensation. it's the sad reality that most of these guys don't get...and they wonder why they can't fill an open slot.... _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002 Posts: 4394 Location: Brew City
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
[email protected] wrote: |
There are some good points in this thread and also some that are WAY off base. Very good discussion.
Here is one thing I can tell you with 100% certainty. This industry is nowhere close to death. As I converse with most of the bigger companies/importers on a weekly basis, I can tell you that sales have been very good lately. If sales were dropping every month and companies were scared that the industry was going to go away, they wouldn't be dropping so much money in R & D for new and/or updated products |
that may be, and I will play devils advocate here. if they were turning out quality stuff, I bet the #'s would drop. if you make some junk and it blows up, someone will re purchase said junk...the cycle repeats
example: a new Volvo axle is about 900.00 but I can get a FEQ for 105. they are junk/shake right out of the box. yet bottom feeder shops will use them...and keep replacing them until they find a good one...which then will die in 14 months....now you have a client who 1) questions why they got 120k out of a original axle and how come this one only lasted 8k and 2) think your shady.
so of course the #'s will be "good" when you pedal junk based on cost and not quality. how many people have said "I can buy 10 of those sockets at harbor freight vs 1 from snap on"? so people will buy more of the cheaper one...every time. it's a false economy
[email protected] wrote: |
Not to get into a huge country wide employment and skill discussion but I will tell you this. From regular car shops to specialty shops to machine shops, it has never been more difficult to find competent workers. |
here is why...(at least in my world)
everyone in automotive is stuck in the 80's. the new pay plans at the dealers suck, techs work 45-60 hours to flag 30 if they are lucky and might get paid 20-25/hr if they are really lucky.... so add up the cost of tools etc and you can cut grass for the state for 24/hr, 12 paid holidays and a retirement plan.
the industry has basically priced good talent out of the market. why would anyone go to work for 20/hr when the posted labor rate is 105+ with little to no benefits? you can't hammer a nail from india...yet trades that need talent in front of them, in house on a daily basis seem to think they will have a line of folks out the door for pennies on the dollar.
there has been a mass exodus of mechanics/techs/machinists to go work for bigger industries with better compensation. it's the sad reality that most of these guys don't get...and they wonder why they can't fill an open slot.... |
No offense but you just described the entire automotive industry since it's inception. Every car, every model, every year from day one until right now has had crap parts available and good quality parts available. You can't pin this philosophy on the VW aftermarket industry. One thing you can pin on the VW aftermarket industry is the willingness to buy crap instead of good quality parts. For example, I see people all the time spending money in the wrong places and wondering why their motor fails. Why are people buying $450 sets of lifters(which are great quality, well made and will last forever) for a street car and then spending $139 on a china made cylinder head? Why spend $350 on a set of H-beam connecting rods for your 1776 and then a $39 china made camshaft?
As for the employees, I don't know the answer. What I do know is that even bringing in people from tech schools doesn't work. That is the biggest joke with all the local shops near me. Everyone has tried it and most times the people show up in white shirts and latex gloves because they "don't want to get dirty" All my employees make 2-4 times minimum wage, depending obviously on experience, skill level and years here. _________________ Please "LIKE" us on facebook to see what we are working on.
https://www.facebook.com/mofoco?ref=ts&fref=ts
www.mofoco.com
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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I have only seen one engine model in the ACVW line that actually requires a head re-torque....or used to.
The type 4 engines all came with head gaskets. They varied in thickness per model mostly on the buses as they were part of the deck. The thinner ones were solid metal. The thicker ones were a multi-layer laminate.
You didnt need the retorque because of any issues with the nuts or cylinder studs or threads in the aluminum case.
You needed the retorque because once the head gasket flattens out and gets a bunch of heat cycles on it.....not being an elastomer sealed head gasket like a modern water cooled car....and/or not being a special hollow, gas filled inconel sealing ring....and/or not being made of any spring material that could store compression energy to cope with expansion, contraction and heat cycling........they would start leaking usually in the 20k range in hot climates.
The factory never retorqued them...and never said to. But people who knew better and worked on a lot of type 4....knew that it helped to prevent the inevitable blow torch, head killing gasket leak......and plenty of them failed with a burn through in the 50-70k range.
Vw got smart mainly on the 2.0L type 4 engines...whose head gaskets were thicker, multi layered and burned through at an excessive rate....by issuing a tech service bulletion.....late 80's iirc....to delete the head gaskets and lap the cylinders to the head just like a type 1.
It fixed the issue. No need to ever retorque. Ray |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12454
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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Great, so after three pages maybe the takeaway here is use quality parts and proper assembly techniques including proper torque specs and you’d probably never have a problem unless you run it real hot. Been there seen it but by the time you hear a compression leak its usually on the way to burning a path between head and cylinder so no re- torquing efforts will help, it’s like pissing up a rope. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
Great, so after three pages maybe the takeaway here is use quality parts and proper assembly techniques including proper torque specs and you’d probably never have a problem unless you run it real hot. Been there seen it but by the time you hear a compression leak its usually on the way to burning a path between head and cylinder so no re- torquing efforts will help, it’s like pissing up a rope. |
Like this?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=717059
I have not had time to answer this one yet.
Its definitely not a stock bore size looking at how far the stud holes were cut into. I think he started with 1.8L heads at a glance.
This can be caused by something as simple as a grain of crap between cylinder and head...but is also really common from the stock head gasket.
Or...it could have been a head repaired from a previous burn out...which never actually works. Ray |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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Thanks for all the comments, folks. The engine that came with my bus died an early death from a compression leak that would have escalated into the thread that Ray posted. The current engine would have died a similar fate if I did not catch the pulled stud.
Rich, thanks for checking with John, I appreciate his input.
Here is the bugger.
I did my best on the repair today. Time will tell if I missed anything…
From what I can gather, Roy, Adrian, and a few other machinists have never seen this in a brand new stock case at 18 ft*lbs cold. The DD CHT gauge has never hit 400°, even on hours-long desert crossings. so I really don't think excessive heat was a cause. I want to say I just got a bummer case, (there were QC issues on the oil pickup tube too,) but maybe I didn't pay attention when I installed the head studs and bottomed out the stud too far, turning the case saver in the case and stressing the threads.
BIG shoutout to Adrian at Headflow Masters for loaning me his special taps, and letting me dig through a pile of cases to inspect how the drillings and castings changed over the years. (All dual relief cases in his shop had the hole FeelthySanchez posted on page one.)
Thanks again everyone,
Robbie
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7599
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Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: case saver pulled on brand new VW case |
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I don’t care two shits about the technical crap going on with this. Nice you hung it out there for people to see. Glad you getting that sorted out. Roll tough. _________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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