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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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 Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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So.... thought I'd share what's going on with my autostick, really weird issue that has no explanation. I've already posted this over on vwar but no solutions yet.
Whenever I'm driving my autostick for a decent amount of time (say, 30-40 minutes) and then I pull up to a complete stop, if I try to then disengage gear and go back into neutral it will NOT let me. But here's the thing- it ONLY happens after driving for a good period of time, and it ONLY is trying to get out of gear back into neutral. If I actually manage to get it back into neutral when this happens, I then have no problem going into another gear--but then I'll be locked in that gear.
For example, a couple days each week I drive to a satellite campus for work, this is about a 40 minute drive. Absolutely no problems shifting from Drive 1 to Drive 2 and back while driving there. But when I get there, if I pull into the parking lot in Drive 1 and then come to a complete stop to back into my parking spot, I have trouble getting it out of Drive 1 into neutral. And if by chance I happen to be able to do this, I can then go into reverse just fine, but after parked I canNOT get it back into neutral from reverse. I have to turn the car off to get the shifter back into neutral. But here's the other weird thing- if I turn the car off and then immediately turn it back on, I suddenly have zero problem getting into and out of gear again!
Idle doesn't seem too low or anything like that, and it doesn't seem to be a vacuum leak or shifter contacts out of adjustment since a) I can shift with no problem while driving, and b) immediately turning the car on and back off always fixes the problem.
I'm flummoxed on this one-- bad voltage regulator maybe?? 
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:14 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| It almost sounds like an electrical issue, potentially at the Neutral safety switch or the CV solenoid. I wonder if when those things heat up, the current or grounding doesn't work. When you turn off the car, electrical components kinda reset at times. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:27 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| JonRich55 wrote: |
| It almost sounds like an electrical issue, potentially at the Neutral safety switch or the CV solenoid. I wonder if when those things heat up, the current or grounding doesn't work. When you turn off the car, electrical components kinda reset at times. |
I'm kind of wondering the same thing, which is why I mentioned the voltage regulator. But again, I still have no problem going into a gear when this happens-- just can't get it back out of gear. So weird...
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:33 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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I would think the VR would also show up in other things, lights, weak horn, slow wipers...in addition to the CV.
I would suspect the winding in the CV solenoid may be having an issue. Also, does your CV get the power from the positive side of the coil, or the Neutral switch?
are you able to reproduce the issue when arriving home and have someone else try to shift while you hold the CV to see if it is engaging? if it doesn't, pull the power connector off and wait 15sec or so and then reattach and try again (without turning off the car, engibe running). the jolt of the power being reapplied can/may reset the internal solenoid. |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31361
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:52 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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Sounds like an electrical-related issue to me as well, especially the fact that it doesn't seem to even go into neutral. Almost like the contacts in the shifter need checking or adjusting, as this should activate some solenoid to enable the shifter to select a different gear.
Disclaimer: I haven't driven an autostick VW in 45 years !
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:56 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| Quote: |
| Almost like the contacts in the shifter need checking or adjusting, as this should activate some solenoid to enable the shifter to select a different gear. |
The reason I am not thinking along that line is shutting off the engine and restarting clearing the problem. If they were out of adjustment, that is a physical issue that would remain. restarting the engine is mostly turning off all electrics and re-powering them. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:05 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| JonRich55 wrote: |
I would think the VR would also show up in other things, lights, weak horn, slow wipers...in addition to the CV.
I would suspect the winding in the CV solenoid may be having an issue. Also, does your CV get the power from the positive side of the coil, or the Neutral switch?
are you able to reproduce the issue when arriving home and have someone else try to shift while you hold the CV to see if it is engaging? if it doesn't, pull the power connector off and wait 15sec or so and then reattach and try again (without turning off the car, engibe running). the jolt of the power being reapplied can/may reset the internal solenoid. |
It has happened when arriving back at home sometimes as well- sometimes. It doesn't always happen when arriving at work either- the one constant is that it always seems to happen after the car has been driven for a period of time and only after coming to a complete stop. If it happens again when I arrive home tonight I'll see if I can get a neighbor to do as you suggested.
My CV solenoid gets power from the ignition coil, path from shifter contacts through neutral safety switch is ground.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 7:55 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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SB001 - the fact that it happens after a longer drive is why I think the CV is electrically sticking / freezing up, and why shutting the power off and back on fixes it.
good luck! keep us posted. |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:20 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| JonRich55 wrote: |
SB001 - the fact that it happens after a longer drive is why I think the CV is electrically sticking / freezing up, and why shutting the power off and back on fixes it.
good luck! keep us posted. |
It could be-- I'll test per your suggestion as soon as I get a chance. But the question remains, why does it only do it after coming to a complete stop? Shifting while driving there is no problem getting out of one gear to shift into another. I've seen autostick issues before where the idle speed was not sufficient to generate 12 volts thereby causing shifting problems. But I don't seem to be having that issue...
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:04 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| Quote: |
| I've seen autostick issues before where the idle speed was not sufficient to generate 12 volts thereby causing shifting problems. |
I was thinking that as well, have you tested the voltage at the moment in time it is happening? (just in case it also was dependent on things heating up)
I wonder if the Torque Converter being in the equation can allow for a shift at speed, while significantly reduced RPMs of idle wont compensate.
Do you have a spare working CV to change out to further diagnose the issue? |
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Tom K.
Samba Member
Joined: March 10, 2005
Posts: 1604
Location: Central Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:23 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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To isolate the electrical problem, instead of turning the entire ignition off and then back on (which resets all electrics), leave the engine on and go back and pull one of the leads from the control valve and then reattach it. Does this replicate the effect you are getting? If not, crawl under and disengage the neutral safety switch and then reengage. Replicate? If not, then disengage and reengage the shift wire under the back seat. You might be able to localize your problem this way. Hopefully it's not you control valve solenoid - those are hard to find or fix.
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12848
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 9:29 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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Contacts on the shift lever. The shifter is supposed to activate the clutch servo the moment you touch it, if the clutch isn't disengaging then the transmission will be locked in gear while the torque converter allows the transmission to "feel" like it's freewheeling.
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| JonRich55 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I've seen autostick issues before where the idle speed was not sufficient to generate 12 volts thereby causing shifting problems. |
I was thinking that as well, have you tested the voltage at the moment in time it is happening? (just in case it also was dependent on things heating up)
I wonder if the Torque Converter being in the equation can allow for a shift at speed, while significantly reduced RPMs of idle wont compensate. |
This is exactly why I was wondering about the VR. There was another autostick owner who's car would die at idle, with the additional strain of the torque converter on the engine idle speed- I suggested he replace the VR and that fixed it. I'm wondering if the regulator actually is working fine at speed but is not quite compensating at idle. I mean there's not really any sign of this being the case- I'm not getting the generator light on the dash, no electrical issues etc.) Either way I assume your suggestion of taking a voltage reading at the CV when this is happening would narrow this possibility down.
| JonRich55 wrote: |
| Do you have a spare working CV to change out to further diagnose the issue? |
I do not- although locating one shouldn't be too much trouble. But I'd rather narrow it down to it definitely being the CV first before I pursue that.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:55 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| Tom K. wrote: |
| To isolate the electrical problem, instead of turning the entire ignition off and then back on (which resets all electrics), leave the engine on and go back and pull one of the leads from the control valve and then reattach it. Does this replicate the effect you are getting? If not, crawl under and disengage the neutral safety switch and then reengage. Replicate? If not, then disengage and reengage the shift wire under the back seat. You might be able to localize your problem this way. Hopefully it's not you control valve solenoid - those are hard to find or fix. |
IF the problem can be traced to the CV not operating until I shut the car off and turn it back on, then IMO it would more likely be a problem with the signal going to the CV not the CV itself. I could try what you say but I think I'd be better served taking an actual voltage reading at the CV when this happens again, then turning the car off and back on and see what the voltage reading is then.
I still say voltage regulator... 
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
|
| Back to top |
|
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:56 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Contacts on the shift lever. The shifter is supposed to activate the clutch servo the moment you touch it, if the clutch isn't disengaging then the transmission will be locked in gear while the torque converter allows the transmission to "feel" like it's freewheeling. |
I don't see how it could be that, since the car shifts absolutely fine all other times. The only way it's the shift lever contacts is if somehow they are separating further apart as I'm driving, then going back closer together again after I shut the car off and turn it back on.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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| Back to top |
|
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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SB001 - What makes your issue unique (at least to me) is the resolution to the problem being to turn off the car and restarting it immediately. (while that does not speak to working while high speed and not at a stop).
As solenoids get old, they may need more power to function when hot. The fact it starts to happen after a long drive (they get heat externally from the engine compartment) and internally (they have constant power from the coil), they may need more current to function properly or it may be getting stuck. Shutting down the car and restarting it gives it a jolt of power by breaking the signal from the coil and then engaging it again. That was my thought behind just pulling the power line (not the ground) and plugging it in after 10-15 secs while the engine was running to see if the act of resetting the CV did anything directly by only interacting with just that one device.
Often, it isn't just the voltage, it is the amps it may draw, and that can very from when cold to when hot and from just age, while the voltage stays the same.
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sb001
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 10406
Location: NW Arkansas
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:08 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| JonRich55 wrote: |
SB001 - What makes your issue unique (at least to me) is the resolution to the problem being to turn off the car and restarting it immediately. (while that does not speak to working while high speed and not at a stop).
As solenoids get old, they may need more power to function when hot. The fact it starts to happen after a long drive (they get heat externally from the engine compartment) and internally (they have constant power from the coil), they may need more current to function properly or it may be getting stuck. Shutting down the car and restarting it gives it a jolt of power by breaking the signal from the coil and then engaging it again. That was my thought behind just pulling the power line (not the ground) and plugging it in after 10-15 secs while the engine was running to see if the act of resetting the CV did anything directly by only interacting with just that one device.
Often, it isn't just the voltage, it is the amps it may draw, and that can very from when cold to when hot and from just age, while the voltage stays the same.
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Yes thinking about what you and Tom are both saying, I'll certainly give this a shot- nothing to lose. Next time it happens I'll go pull the + power lead off the CV, wait about 10 seconds or so, then reattach and see if it suddenly works. If so, I guess you and Tom are correct that this test shows the "jolt" of power after disconnect and reconnect is manipulating the solenoid on the CV into working again.
IF this turns out to be the case, I can get another CV from the local VW salvage yard in my area, or grab another one off the samba.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.
1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor |
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| Back to top |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 11:17 am Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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Even if this doesn't solve the problem, you might want to have one as a spare before they become to hard to get  The Autostick parts are the one area I made sure I have spares for. |
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Brainard70VWJax
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Joined: September 19, 2017
Posts: 51
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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| I have the same issue...can someone explain what the CV solenoid does and what it looks like? at beginner level please |
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JonRich55
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2018
Posts: 378
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:24 pm Post subject: Re: autostick issue that no one can figure out. |
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it is the large device sitting on the left side of your engine compartment. It has 3 very large and 1 small Vacuum lines going to it and 2 wires. When you press on the shifter, it grounds the circuit to the CV unit and that opens internal ports that use the vacuum to pull the clutch arm open allowing you to shift the trans.
in a general terms. |
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