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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3577
Location: Chicago
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 Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:17 am Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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| Paulbeard wrote: |
The hits just keep on coming…
New coil and plugs arrived today. The coil went in but the plugs (BKR5E) did not…the terminal can't be unscrewed as on the BR6ES ones I had, so finished swapping BR6ES ones in. Turns out all four of the old plugs were broken. WTF would cause that?
Got it started but it was very rough, strong smell of unburned fuel, high idle (about 1500). It let it run for a minute and then stopped it. It refused to start again. Can you flood a fuel injected motor? I didn't test the coil beforehand but since it started once, I'm assuming for the moment it's good.
Anyway, that's the state of play. Not sure what to look at next. |
1st, YES, You can flood an engine with Fuel Injection, Hydrolocking from a leaking Injector OR, and this is where I'm going with your issue, a leaking diaphragm in the Fuel Pressure Regulator. Since the fuel goes down the vacuum hose and into the engine easily, you flood the entire engine versus one cyl from a leaking ported injector.
So, remove the vacuum hose at your Fuel Pressure Reg, and make sure NO gas is present. Tell us what you find.
2nd, Those Broken Spark Plugs, get another Spark Plug Socket that plays well with your engine and the plugs you're using. Something is WRONG with the internal clearance on your socket, which stresses the porcelain on the plug as you're installing the plug or removing it.
I can't believe it's anything else than that, since having someone drop your new plugs on the floor and crack them inside their box, before handing them to you doesn't seem as likely[ although it DOES happen...  ]
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'68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 11:39 am Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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If I had been more awake, I could have checked the plug wires. I suspect they are not great. That’s my next task.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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tjet 
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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I just found this on another post...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683344
It's also an ABA...
On your current rough-running situation, double check your spark plug wire routing and confirm all sensors are plugged in. |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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I'll doublecheck the routing for sure, as I test them. Could the motor get hot enough to weaken them and then the coil just finished them off?
| jlrftype7 wrote: |
2nd, Those Broken Spark Plugs, get another Spark Plug Socket that plays well with your engine and the plugs you're using. Something is WRONG with the internal clearance on your socket, which stresses the porcelain on the plug as you're installing the plug or removing it.
I can't believe it's anything else than that, since having someone drop your new plugs on the floor and crack them inside their box, before handing them to you doesn't seem as likely[ although it DOES happen... ] |
They were broken when I took the connector off: I never put a socket to them. They have been there almost four years (less than 10k miles), installed when the motor was replaced.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 11:55 am Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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Just took another look with the meter…didn't try to start it, just gathering data.
The new coil shows as .8 (on the 200 Ω scale) on the primary, and 3.74 (on the 20k Ω scale) on the secondary.
Checked continuity on the plug wires and they all showed about 1800…either consistently good or completely fcked. I am optimistically leaning toward the former. Replacing them is obviously easily done but I am trying to avoid diagnosis by part swapping. The wires in place are the ones with a shield around the plug, right the way down to the head.
The dipstick smells a little more like gas that I think is good. I assume a lot of fuel washed down on the various attempts to start so I guess that needs to be changed before I do much else.
What other tips, O Sambanisti…?
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Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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tjet
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Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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At this point, you may want to start from scratch.
I would do a compression test now with a fully charged battery.
I have some ideas, but do a compression test first.
Good luck  |
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Paulbeard
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Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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I don't think compression is the issue. It wants to run, it just stumbles really badly, doesn't quite catch. Like it's running on 1 or 2 cylinders. Which may be case if the ignition wiring is messed up.
The oil did not look good, considering it only got 1000 miles on it. Darker than I like to see.
What else can be checked by one not very smart person? I can't check spark, obviously. Are there other continuity tests? How can I verify the distributor/rotor/cap and all is working?
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Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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Don't assume the compression is good, you want to verify it. I worked in a shop watching mechanics troubleshooting rough-running issues to find out way later that there's a hole in a piston, etc.
Also, only a compression test, not a leakdown test (not yet anyway) |
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Paulbeard
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Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:24 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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Well, that's outside the scope of anything I can do. If things are that bad, next stop is the classifieds.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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| You can do it. It's easy once you get the hang of it. Be sure to get a quality test kit. I have a Snap-On, but I think K-D makes a good one. Just remember to get the one that screws in, not the "hold-in" cheap tester. You will also need to get a remote starter switch. |
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Paulbeard
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Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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I'm having a hard time imagining how a coil crapping out can do all this damage, from shattered plugs to a holed piston.
If I replace the wires, rotor and cap — overdue anyway, I suppose — and that doesn't resolve it, I'll let my shop give me the bad news. And it's not like I can find those locally… so any resolution will have to wait.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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| A coil can also burn up an ECU. The reason I'm suggesting a compression test is because it should always be the beginning of any engine weird-running troubleshooting. Just like when you go see the doctor and they check your BP & weight every time. |
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Paulbeard
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Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:21 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Cracked ceramic on plugs from running badly or detonation are cracked at or near the electrode, not on the outer ceramic body.
The way yours cracked screams physical abuse or a manufacturing defect.
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Well, I never touched them til I took them out. Something isn't right Back There…too much heat or something. The only significant change was the new ECU a year or two back…not that I think that had any effect.
| tjet wrote: |
| A coil can also burn up an ECU. |
Aha. I was thinking i could swap in the old ECU and see what difference it makes. I'll be underwhelmed if that's the case…FAS will want another $500 for a new one, I'm sure.
Annnndddd… the ECU makes no difference.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers
Last edited by Paulbeard on Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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Yes, it could be an ECU, but before you spend another dollar on "guessing", you should really confirm the engine vitals first.
Also, before you plug in another ECU, be sure the connectors dont have any water in them, and all grounds are good. I would run another ground wire just to be safe (slave it in). |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It all feels like guessing right now…
All these parts are overdue for replacement so I don't see the harm in new plug wires etc. I can't be sure when they were last replaced. If all that is done and things are no better, I'll call in a tow. Even if I determine it's a bad piston, it's not like I can drive it to the shop.
So that's all of that for today, I think. I need to take this overcooked oil to FLAPS to call it done.
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Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:10 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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I want to ask you a few questions just to recap things. Sorry if you mentioned this before & sorry that you are having troubles.
1. When was the last time the engine ran well, or your opinion of normal running?
2. What work was done (if any) just prior to your current problem?
3. If it was worked on before the problem, what/why was the reason? |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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| tjet wrote: |
1. When was the last time the engine ran well, or your opinion of normal running? |
A week ago today. Ran fine.
| tjet wrote: |
2. What work was done (if any) just prior to your current problem? |
I replaced the coolant temp sensor and degreased around the oil filter flange/heat exchanger to try to figure out a leak.
| tjet wrote: |
3. If it was worked on before the problem, what/why was the reason? |
Coolant temp gauge wasn't working and I know from my oil temps and other experience that the motor is running hot. Coolant gauge was fixed after replacing the sender.
It ran pretty well after that little project, though it was very hard to start. Usually starts instantly. This took quite a bit of cranking. Then after a while it ran very rough, especially below 2500 pm, then started backfiring and stumbling. It stalled while I was waiting for someone to figure out they couldn't parallel park and it was dead at that point. Pushed it to the side and called for a tow and a few attempts to start. I didn't realize the injectors/fuel rail was loose at the time. Of course it wasn't going to start.
I have a compression tester on loan from my FLAPS. I'll see what it tells me tomorrow.
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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Baring no internal engine damage/issues exist, there are 3 sensors that will cause your engine to behave that way:
1. AFM / MAF sensor
2. Distributor hall pickup / crank position sensor
3. CTS - coolant temp sensor
I would make sure each one of those connectors have no water in them - depending how hard you rinsed off your engine.
The other thing I would try is reinstall the original coolant temp sensor.
Good luck |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
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Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: My first tow - won't start |
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| tjet wrote: |
Baring no internal engine damage/issues exist, there are 3 sensors that will cause your engine to behave that way:
1. AFM / MAF sensor
2. Distributor hall pickup / crank position sensor
3. CTS - coolant temp sensor
I would make sure each one of those connectors have no water in them - depending how hard you rinsed off your engine.
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It's been a week. I hope there is no water anywhere now. The distributor and Hall sender are dry, never got wet. The AFM/MAF sensor was replaced a couple of years ago. How can I test that? Can I just unplug or unmount it?
Not sure I can find the temp sender but I can't imagine how a functioning one would cause this when a broken one was fine. Can you explain your thinking there?
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Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
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