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Rawbacon9975
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:20 pm    Post subject: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

I currently have a 35ah AGM hooked up to my standard GoWesty isolator. I want to upgrade to a couple of 6v 208ah golf cart batteries and put them under the bench seat. Can I just extend the wiring and hook the two 6v batts in series? Do I need to increase the gauge of wire to something like 8awg?

Thanks!

Rob
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thatvwbusguy
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

It's time to pull the GoWesty kit. It is in no way capable of recharging a pair of even mildly depleted golf cart batteries.

If all of the circuits that are currently powered via the 35Ah auxiliary battery are working properly, you can leave that portion of the wiring intact and just pull the wires that supply the silver solenoid.

Running 8AWG wiring from the starter post to a voltage sensing relay like the Victron Cyrix is a simple way to provide a short and efficient charging path. This negates the need to depend on the blue alternator field wire to initiate charging. https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Intelligent-Battery-Combiner-Cyrix-ct/dp/B0738JGVZ9
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

As long as you are getting 13.7-14.7 volts at your aux battery when the alternator is working, your batteries will charge. How fast they charge is the question. Heavier gauge wire will, in theory, supply more amps, for a faster charge, but you are always limited by how many amps your alternator produces and by how much of that current is being diverted to other electrical demands in the Van. You may want to look into upgrading your alternator or plan on using a shore-powered charger to top that pair of 6Vs off.
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Rawbacon9975
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

thatvwbusguy wrote:

If all of the circuits that are currently powered via the 35Ah auxiliary battery are working properly, you can leave that portion of the wiring intact and just pull the wires that supply the silver solenoid.

Running 8AWG wiring from the starter post to a voltage sensing relay like the Victron Cyrix is a simple way to provide a short and efficient charging path. This negates the need to depend on the blue alternator field wire to initiate charging. https://www.amazon.com/Victron-Intelligent-Battery-Combiner-Cyrix-ct/dp/B0738JGVZ9


Is there a simple way to switch out the GoWesty for the Cyrix (or Blue Sea, or similar)?
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Going to a couple of golf cart batteries is a whole different program than what you currently have. Before choosing what you need for the system, it is important to identify your usage. For example, will you be parked for a while without any charging capabilities and expect the stock alternator to refill the 208ah system? Fridge? Other big loads? I'd do a whole lot of research and read a bunch of the topics before I assume anything. Start with: http://www.balmar.net/balmar-technology/multi-stage-regulation/
There are a number in Samba's FAQ guide that will help, including:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=633007
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Rawbacon9975
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:59 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Jeez...the more I try to do, the deeper over my head I realize I am.

Maybe I just should have gotten the 100ah AGM battery. Could I hook THAT up directly to my GoWesty isolator?

I want to be able to run the fridge for a couple of days max without any charging. I’m not planning on doing any long-term boondocking, and usually end up driving around a bit most days (when not an a 4-hr trip to next destination). Is the problem with the GoWesty that it will charge my two 6v’s really slowly? Or will it not work at all?

Thanks,
Drowning Newbie
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

If you replace those batteries with a new 100 aH battery, you are condemning it to the same slow death by undercharging. Bigger wire and a smarter battery combiner are what's needed here.
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DuncanS
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Here's a simple Q & D solution. Get a marine--1,2,both switch.
https://www.westmarine.com/buy/blue-sea-systems--e...ecordNum=6
There is no combiner and you have to do the switching. The way this would work is you would have the switch on 1 (for the sake of discussion, battery 1 is the original start battery under the PS seat), start the car and run in this mode for about 10 minutes. This will replace the juice you used to start the car. Then, while running, you switch to 2 (the pair of golf cart batteries). From now on, the start battery is out of the circuit and the alternator will charge only the golf cart batteries.

HOWEVER--read this!!!! https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/d...Disconnect If the battery switch is turned to OFF while the engine is running, you WILL trash the alternator. Your can get diodes to prevent this problem, but as long as you are aware, fine. I'd get the diodes.

A ton of guys will say this is stupid, but it will work. The good news is that the golf cart batteries are LA just like the OG starter battery, so the alternator knows what to do. That said, the golf cart batteries are a lake while the starter battery is a gallon jug, so filling 208ah will take a time. I'd get a decent charger and make sure the GC batteries are topped off before your trip to reduce the alt situation. Add a pair of inexpensive digital volt meters to see what you've got and you'll be fine. Make sure the voltmeters are 4 digit meters as there is a big difference in remaining capacity from 12.6 to 12.5--It helps to know that you have 12.59 rather than just 12.5X.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:40 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

I have relied on manual battery switches in the past and I admit it was stupid of me to do so. Most of the time I remembered to switch or forgot at times that didn't much matter. But the times I forgot that REALLY mattered ended up screwing up our vacations. It is so simple and cheap to do it right with relays.

Mark
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Originally I deleted the factory charging relay and added a Yandina combiner. At the time, there was a lot of good feed back on them. Eventually it died of course out of warranty.

My next solution was to add a manual battery switch from the marine industry. It has 3 positions. Both batteries off. Comes in handy when the van is sitting for extended periods. Battery 1 which is my camping battery. When stopped for the evening, I use that position. Position 2 is both batteries combined. I run the van in this position. I don't worry about starting charging switching etc. In the am when it's time to go, I combine both batteries.

In fact, my cabin battery is under the back seat and is wired with cables heavy enough to start the the engine. Combined, the TDI gets excellent cranking speeds. The ALH stock ECU needs good cranking rpms to start hot.

It also saved our butt when the last hurricane was coming. Our starter battery actually failed from age and I was able to start and run the engine off of the auxilary battery. We were evacuating off the barrier island.

Yes, it is something extra to remember, but memory tests are good for us as we age out. More than a 100 ways to skin a cat.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

I like Mark's comments There are two ways to solve a problem. The first is to study the hell out of it, research some more, get a thousand opinions and then spend gillions and take equal number of years installing and another million working out the kinks............only to find out....... The second is to slap something in, immediately go camping and discover that--if only I had ........... Add and reconfigure until it does exactly what you need over time and get pleasure from how perfectly your custom system works.

That's the beauty of the marine switch, it gets you on the road now--four positions by the way. 1, 2, both and off. And if you were to stick the switch in an out of the way spot, then it could work as a theft deterrent as well. Just keep the door locks, radio presets, and clock on 30, the rest through the switch.

One last comment. In the marine industry we try never to have an alternator charge different batteries. It doesn't matter if they are all LA, AGM or Gel together. If the batteries are not all identical--same make, size and AH, then we like to separate the systems. For example a lead acid start battery on its own alternator and lead acid house deep cycle on another alternator and control system. In this case I wouldn't worry as the start battery can be considered fungible and as in Mark's system you can always start on the golf cart units. Just keep it on both unless the drive is more than an hour in which case I'd switch it to house bank only to keep them up.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Rawbacon9975 wrote:
Is there a simple way to switch out the GoWesty for the Cyrix (or Blue Sea, or similar)?


As is often the case here, a "quick wiring question" morphs into more of a philosophical discussion Very Happy

Unfortunately there really isn't a simple way to rid yourself of the GoWesty system since installing their kit involves cutting and splicing wires on the rear of the fuse block.

As I mentioned earlier, as long as the accessories that are currently powered via the auxiliary battery are working properly, there is no real need to remove the "output" side of the GoWesty kit. Simply install a small fuse block under the driver's seat to manage the connections and run a wire from the new batteries to power the fuse block. You should be able to use the GoWesty instructions to guide you with removing the "supply" side of the kit.

The method you employ to charge your batteries ultimately needs to be compatible with your style. If you are the type of person that consistently works with checklists and likes to have "a place for everything and everything in its place", then a manual switch might work for you. If you like to "turn the key and go", it's probably not the right method.

I am an automation engineer, and I would never consider going back to using a manual switch of any sort due to the fact that doing so places 100% of the responsibility on me to control where the charge is going and when it is going there.

After 20+ years of driving VW's with auxiliary battery systems, I know that I would much rather design a system with high quality parts, then "set it and forget it" as much as possible.

I have been running a voltage sensing relay to charge the auxiliary batteries in my '85 Westy since 2008. In all that time, I have yet to arrive at a campsite with anything but a full auxiliary battery system.

As others have suggested, having an onboard charger for times when you have access to 120V power is a great idea and will keep your batteries in tip-top condition when you are not driving every day. Storing any battery with less than a full charge will drastically reduce its lifespan.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

There are no simple wiring questions on Samba
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:02 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Advice on advice------ A friend once told me there is no such thing as bad advice. ALL advice is 100% correct and a perfect plan of action--------for the person giving the advice, considering their desires and skill sets.

Another friend and I once acquired old boats at the same time. He knew very little about wooden boat building and sought my advice which I gave. However, he followed his own plan and worked diligently on it in his heated garage for 8 years. Finally it was gleaming with many coats new varnish and he launched her with great justifiable pride. I worked on my boat and organized the repairs such that she went sailing that year and every year after that. After 20 years, I am still making "improvements", but she goes sailing every year with many compliments about her appearance and performance which give me a sense of pride too.

Each to his own. If you are an electrically savvy guy who likes the concept of perfectly engineered automatic systems---go for it. If you are a camper who doesn't know a whole lot about wiring, but wants something to make life a little easier, even if it means a manual system which you consider a small price to pay for being out there on the fabulous site watching the sunset with a cold beer----go for it. My only advice is not to be seduced into a plan which doesn't match your desires and skill sets.

We are glad to offer help with whatever path you choose.

Duncan
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Rawbacon9975
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

DuncanS wrote:


Each to his own. If you are an electrically savvy guy who likes the concept of perfectly engineered automatic systems---go for it. If you are a camper who doesn't know a whole lot about wiring, but wants something to make life a little easier, even if it means a manual system which you consider a small price to pay for being out there on the fabulous site watching the sunset with a cold beer----go for it. My only advice is not to be seduced into a plan which doesn't match your desires and skill sets.

We are glad to offer help with whatever path you choose.

Duncan


Thanks. That is sound advice, and probably just what I needed to hear. I guess simply put, I want a simple automatic system that works. I’ll work up my own wiring diagram and post for approval.

While I’m here...has anyone moved the starting battery over to the driver’s seat hole? It would sure be easier to run wires from there...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Here’s my first try. Here are my questions...

1. Will this work?
2. Do I need fuses on runs A, B, and/or C? What size?

Getting there. I think I’ve just about got my hair above water...soon I’ll be able to actually breathe!! Smile

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 2:53 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

How is this for an approach ?

For a three day camp trip , a fridge will pull 15-18 amp hours per day, confirm yours

Your single car battery has a cap of 80 amp hours so three days will draw it to 50%, about as low As you should go, but 6 times a year this would be ok

Bring a good starter pack as a backup starter battery at camp

Drive out to camp , use your existing battery, drive home To charge.

Put Jump pack on charger at home

No mods, cost, bad wiring, automatic
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

Rob--I don't see anything wrong with that, but I would add a marine switch between the two batteries. The idea here is that you could start the car with the GC batteries if you needed to. You could also just carry jumper cables, but they take up room and tangle even if you keep them in a nice bag. A simple version of this would be a heavy duty on off switch from under the rear seat GC batteries, through the fire wall and directly to the starter motor. This would normally be off, but should the start battery die, throw the switch and off you go. You would need to get a local shop to fabricate the heavy wires needed for this system. You are going to need a heavy jumper between the two 6v batteries in any event. I'd also put a 150 amp fuse immediately down stream from the GC batteries. Always try to keep the unprotected wires as short as possible to prevent fires.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BK_7821138
Also depending on which wire is longer--A or B, I would put a fuse in the longer wire as close to the source as possible. What you have drawn will work.

The GC batteries need to be secured somehow. I wouldn't move the start battery as the wires are already there and so why bother.

Abscate is right. Buy a good modern jump pack. Any 30 year old car and especially one where you will go off into the hinterlands should have one. Smaller than the jumper cable bag and good for other stuff too.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 4:49 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

The stock starter batteries in Group 41 are 60 - 70 amp hours when new.
The fridge draw will vary with season and campsite conditions.
Even with a dedicated G41 battery just for the fridge a 2 night stay will be about the limit before it is drained in warm weather and/or direct sun heating the van.

Your basic diagram looks ok. Fuses are a good idea but they should be placed right at the battery terminals on wires A and B. The size of the fuse depends mostly on the size of the wire. The size of the wire depends on the length of the run and the size of the aux battery. These are not the only factors that enter into it. For 2 golf cart batteries wired like you show I'd go with Marine grade #6 wire and 100 or 120 amp fuses. Please notice I said "wired like you show", not wired some other way. I would go with some other way.

The most critical thing is to route all the wiring SAFELY. If you put batteries, wiring, or exposed connections where things might one day be placed on them COVER them with strong enough covers.

Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Quick wiring question... Reply with quote

X2 Mark
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