| Author |
Message |
jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
 |
|
I'll second my comment quoted above.
Raise your idle RPM just a little. Does it go away? The RJE cam is lumpy, like a 2280 CB.. The lumpy idle creates pulses in the input shaft that make the noise. Now.. I'd suggest you drop the oil and have it tested by Blackstone (even though Sodo will tell you there is no need if you filter your oil.. and so on) just to be sure. Now what about this whine in 2nd? Has that always been there? Also mentioned in my original statement is that a failing mainshaft bearing will whine.. but should be audible in all gears, albeit a different pitch due to the needed input torque.
J |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| jberger wrote: |
I'll second my comment quoted above.
Raise your idle RPM just a little. Does it go away? The RJE cam is lumpy, like a 2280 CB.. The lumpy idle creates pulses in the input shaft that make the noise. Now.. I'd suggest you drop the oil and have it tested by Blackstone (even though Sodo will tell you there is no need if you filter your oil.. and so on) just to be sure. Now what about this whine in 2nd? Has that always been there? Also mentioned in my original statement is that a failing mainshaft bearing will whine.. but should be audible in all gears, albeit a different pitch due to the needed input torque.
J |
I will check if raising the rpm eliminates the noise. Good call.
Yes the whine has been there in 2nd for years. Really since I got the van in 2015. I am going to check the magnet tonight and I will post a pic.
Thanks!
nate
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
Here is the drain plug. It was covered in the black sludge and I did find a few metal bits the size of a grain of sand. Maybe three to four?
Thoughts?
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
BTW here is a copy of the receipt if anyone can decipher the hand writing and it shows what was done 35K miles ago
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
Looks like it was taken apart for 1/2 shifting issue. Replaced the operating sleeve, found the dogs out of position. New mainsaft bearing and synchronizers. Looks like 3/4 hub was replaced as well. No pinion or diff bearings though.
J |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| jberger wrote: |
Looks like it was taken apart for 1/2 shifting issue. Replaced the operating sleeve, found the dogs out of position. New mainsaft bearing and synchronizers. Looks like 3/4 hub was replaced as well. No pinion or diff bearings though.
J |
Thoughts on the drain plug?
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
dogs on operating sleeve missing......
Wonder if this was a Zink rebuild.
| jberger wrote: |
| Now.. I'd suggest you drop the oil and have it tested by Blackstone (even though Sodo will tell you there is no need if you filter your oil.. and so on) just to be sure. |
Sodo will say that checking drain plug, looking at the stuff, is the correct next step. Oil analysis would confirm that you have way too much steel in your oil. As everyone does, especially with big engines and too-long change intervals. Oil analysis won't add value here, especially once there's "noise". If the noise is from within, it's pretty much "over".
Reducing the steel however you do it (such as more frequent changes or other methods) can add longevity but it has to be done while the trans is quiet and in good condition.
How many miles on that oil?
Are you able to post a decent pic of those "grains of sand" chunks?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| goldtooth wrote: |
| jberger wrote: |
Looks like it was taken apart for 1/2 shifting issue. Replaced the operating sleeve, found the dogs out of position. New mainsaft bearing and synchronizers. Looks like 3/4 hub was replaced as well. No pinion or diff bearings though.
J |
Thoughts on the drain plug? |
Inconclusive... subjective... tea leaves.. tarot cards.. Rorschach test..?
I think dwelling on the hairstyle of drainplug magnets is useless.. maybe a punch line if something really unique is attached to it.. like part of a pinion tooth.
Depending on how you look at it, your magnet is either really good or really bad. 
J |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
Yes it's hard to judge a magnet hairdo because USUALLY some of the stuff is pollution from the previous oil batch. And at what stage is this transaxle in its lifetime? And what engine? And how fast/how heavy/how hot etc.
Long skinny shards = imminent death.
The short dust yours has is "preferable".
What you want is lots of clear space on the magnet. You don't have that.
For the "stage" your tranny is in, you are waiting too long before changing.
The "noise" is a different matter.
But you have less than many others,.....but what's the interval? Some of these fellers show a magnet with 60,000 miles; which is 30-45,000 miles running in barf, that's gotta be flushing years of transaxle lifetime down the toilet.
That's why it's good to change twice - get to a baseline (starting clean) where you can actually make some conclusions.
The miles interval is interesting too. Do you remember?
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17110
Location: Retired South Florida
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 4:47 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| jberger wrote: |
Looks like it was taken apart for 1/2 shifting issue. Replaced the operating sleeve, found the dogs out of position. New mainsaft bearing and synchronizers. Looks like 3/4 hub was replaced as well. No pinion or diff bearings though.
J |
That might account for how a 2nd gear tooth might have been damaged. Because of the cost and availability, the decision may have been made to reuse the gears during the repair.
_________________
☮️ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:48 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
Yes it's hard to judge a magnet hairdo because USUALLY some of the stuff is pollution from the previous oil batch. And at what stage is this transaxle in its lifetime? And what engine? And how fast/how heavy/how hot etc.
Long skinny shards = imminent death.
The short dust yours has is "preferable".
What you want is lots of clear space on the magnet. You don't have that.
For the "stage" your tranny is in, you are waiting too long before changing.
The "noise" is a different matter.
But you have less than many others,.....but what's the interval? Some of these fellers show a magnet with 60,000 miles; which is 30-45,000 miles running in barf, that's gotta be flushing years of transaxle lifetime down the toilet.
That's why it's good to change twice - get to a baseline (starting clean) where you can actually make some conclusions.
The miles interval is interesting too. Do you remember? |
I have changed the tranny fluid twice in 4 years I have owned the van. Both times with Swepco. The first time with 201 around 220K (tranny was worked on at 214K) miles and then again in 2017 with 230K miles this time with Swepco 202 (currently has 245K). The oil is dark out of the bottle so it is hard to see if the oil is clean. I would say my last drain plug looked a lot like this one.
I have a 2.2L waterboxer and I drive pretty slow. The only time the tranny is punished a bit is long climbs in third gear.
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jake de Villiers
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007
Posts: 5911
Location: Tsawwassen, BC
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
dogs on operating sleeve missing......
Wonder if this was a Zink rebuild. |
Hey Sodo, that's entirely uncalled for. Please redact this.
_________________
'84 Vanagon GL 1.9 WBX
'86 Westy Weekender Poptop/2.5 Subaru/5 Speed Posi/Audi Front Brakes/16 x 7 Mercedes Wheels - answers to 'Dixie'
@jakedevilliersmusic1
http://sites.google.com/site/subyjake/mydixiedarlin%27
www.crescentbeachguitar.com
www.thebassspa.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| Jake de Villiers wrote: |
| Sodo wrote: |
dogs on operating sleeve missing......
Wonder if this was a Zink rebuild. |
Hey Sodo, that's entirely uncalled for. Please redact this. |
I guess I don't know what he is talking about there. Thinking I'm just gonna pull it today and drive it to Bend tomorrow and see what German Transaxle says. I will give them the old receipt and the symptoms and just be done with it.
nate
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| goldtooth wrote: |
| I guess I don't know what he is talking about there. Thinking I'm just gonna pull it today and drive it to Bend tomorrow and see what German Transaxle says. I will give them the old receipt and the symptoms and just be done with it. |
If you wanna entertain us with your trip reports and not your breakdown stories, I think that's a good move. It will be appreciated by Samba members! I think you are on borrowed time (with any noise from within). The opening of "Vanagon Season" is coming soon.
Jake its hard to redact after its been [quoted]. Besides who am I, Attorney General William Barr? 
Note that the Sonoma fella thought it was 'curious' enough to mention it (of all things?) on his invoice. Why? Perhaps it's a CYA move where he's documenting that whoever was in this trans before him "took some liberties" and he can't vouch for its longevity. If I'm reading the Sonoma invoice correctly, and if dogs are missing, they were "broken off intentionally" during a rebuild, a specific action taken by a rebuilder who believes in the 'method' of knocking off worn dogs (on the gear not the sleeve?). To be fair, I don't know how widespread (or not) this method is.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
| goldtooth wrote: |
| I guess I don't know what he is talking about there. Thinking I'm just gonna pull it today and drive it to Bend tomorrow and see what German Transaxle says. I will give them the old receipt and the symptoms and just be done with it. |
If you wanna entertain us with your trip reports and not your breakdown stories, I think that's a good move. It will be appreciated by Samba members! I think you are on borrowed time (with any noise from within). The opening of "Vanagon Season" is coming soon.
Jake its hard to redact after its been [quoted]. Besides who am I, Attorney General William Barr?
Note that the Sonoma fella thought it was 'curious' enough to mention it (of all things?) on his invoice. Why? Perhaps it's a CYA move where he's documenting that whoever was in this trans before him "took some liberties" and he can't vouch for its longevity. If I'm reading the Sonoma invoice correctly, and if dogs are missing, they were "broken off intentionally" during a rebuild, a specific action taken by a rebuilder who believes in the 'method' of knocking off worn dogs (on the gear not the sleeve?). To be fair, I don't know how widespread (or not) this method is. |
I have a pretty epic trip coming this summer to Canada and I want to do another trip report that doesn't involve a broken transmission.
I so appreciate all of the input on this thread and when I get the transmission back from GTA, I will report on this thread their comments as well as the drive test.
nate
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jberger
Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003
Posts: 2476
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| Sodo wrote: |
| goldtooth wrote: |
| I guess I don't know what he is talking about there. Thinking I'm just gonna pull it today and drive it to Bend tomorrow and see what German Transaxle says. I will give them the old receipt and the symptoms and just be done with it. |
If you wanna entertain us with your trip reports and not your breakdown stories, I think that's a good move. It will be appreciated by Samba members! I think you are on borrowed time (with any noise from within). The opening of "Vanagon Season" is coming soon.
Jake its hard to redact after its been [quoted]. Besides who am I, Attorney General William Barr?
Note that the Sonoma fella thought it was 'curious' enough to mention it (of all things?) on his invoice. Why? Perhaps it's a CYA move where he's documenting that whoever was in this trans before him "took some liberties" and he can't vouch for its longevity. If I'm reading the Sonoma invoice correctly, and if dogs are missing, they were "broken off intentionally" during a rebuild, a specific action taken by a rebuilder who believes in the 'method' of knocking off worn dogs (on the gear not the sleeve?). To be fair, I don't know how widespread (or not) this method is. |
By "dogs" I believe they were referring to the three dogs that hold the slider to one side or the other. Located in the three recesses on the hub.
J |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17110
Location: Retired South Florida
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
I uploaded this picture of my 3/4 slider. You can see the 3 "dogs" or catches in this picture. They are the small rectangular pieces. They index the operating sleeve and force the synchronizer onto the gear face when shifting.
They are quite strong and can do some damage if they get loose.
_________________
☮️ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
Tranny is in the capable hands of German Transaxle. Should have it back in a week or so. They are going to keep all of the old parts and let me know what the noise was and what all was wrong (if anything)
Nate
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thatbaldwinlife
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2011
Posts: 777
Location: Out exploring
|
| Posted: Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:31 am Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
Got a call from GTA yesterday. They said the gear carrier is bad and the bearing was pretty loose in it. He said this may be the knocking noise I heard as the aluminum/magnesium carrier heats up and expands at a different rate than the steel gear, it would get looser and possibly make the noise. That might explain why I did not hear the noise when the tranny was cold.
Also second gear is bad as well as the fourth gear set.
Will be able to talk with Ken in more detail when I pick it up sometime next week.
Nate
_________________
1987 Westy
Insta: @Thatbaldwinlife
Vanagon Adventure and DIY videos:
That Baldwin Life YouTube Channel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
chiefpete
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2014
Posts: 18
Location: California
|
| Posted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Rattling/ knocking noise only when clutch is out |
|
|
| I'm super curious to hear a follow-up on this case, since my van has been showing off the same sound and symptoms the past several months! With the further transaxle repairs, was your situation improved? I ask because I don't have many miles on this GW rebuild (purchased 6 years ago) and am hoping I find something by just taking a look at the clutch and flywheel. After hunting on the Interwebs a long while, it just seemed like your scenario sounded the most like mine... but geez with the diagnostic from your shop -- I hope not! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
