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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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 Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:21 pm Post subject: Align Boring |
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Hey all, it has been 20 plus years since I ran an align boring bar through a case. So, I decided to find one for sale and buy it. So I did. Now I have a few questions, which I am hoping you all can help me out with.
First here is the bar.
It came with a 20 and 40 set of cutters. It has tight bushings front and rear. But I am in need of cutting a case and checking the cut. I do not want to sacrifice one of my good cases, and I have no bad ones. So......
Does anyone have a bad standard or 1st cut case holding down the floor?
Also, I need to machine out a set of 60 cutters and a thrust cutter. Manufacturing the billet aluminum cutter bodies is super easy. But, I have no idea where to get the actual cutters from. Any input would be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance for any information!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
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GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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Meiang
Samba Member
Joined: September 27, 2016
Posts: 656
Location: Perth, Western Australia
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:59 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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The problem with old machinery is that it gets out of tolerance. I can't comment on shops in the US but most of the machine shops here are running very old equipment because no one repairs blocks, they just get a new short block. Try and find a machine shop that has new equipment, most have not because the market they cater for does not want to pay enough and they cannot afford new machinery.
I would be very dubious of using any align boring equipment that has an unknown history. |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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Rocky Jennings used to have everything for line boring bars. His ad’s for the cutters/cutter bits haven’t been updated for a while, so not sure if he’s still making parts. Maybe drop him an email?
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=723624 |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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The size how you cut there are three main variables
Cutter distance from bar
Bar runout
Bar deflection
the deflection and runout will be about nil on the #1 and #4, so, you just set to the right size and that's what you'll get. If it's OFF then probably the error is in how you set the size, which should be repeatable.
The center main the deflection will cause some variation, a heavier cut might cause it to cut larger or smaller, it depends how the cutters are sharpened.... and how sharp they are, but yet again that should be repeatable.
Certainly i would check the bar for runout and mark where it is, if it's just a little you can set the cutters 90 degrees to the high spot and eliminate that variable.
i would recommend you take notes on what you did and what size that produced, because line boring isn't predictable, but it is repeatable. Each thing you do, do it the same every time. RPM, position of cutters, position of centering bushings, always the same, and you will get same results.
To just do one.....I think I could do it just fine. I'd set it up to take .012, see how it came out, then take out the other .008
But now with it set that size... and you take a .020 cut....what will it do? that's what you need the junk case for. |
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vamram
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2012
Posts: 7300
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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Jimbo - Look up NSRacing. He machined the case from my '73 super salvage project and made some of the parts he needed for the .20 cut while I was at his garage. I'm not sure if he still makes them for others, but I know he has in the past.
Victor
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| Meiang wrote: |
The problem with old machinery is that it gets out of tolerance. I can't comment on shops in the US but most of the machine shops here are running very old equipment because no one repairs blocks, they just get a new short block. Try and find a machine shop that has new equipment, most have not because the market they cater for does not want to pay enough and they cannot afford new machinery.
I would be very dubious of using any align boring equipment that has an unknown history. |
Exactly! Thanks. Agreed. That is what a few junked cases are for.
Want to check it out before putting it to work.
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:02 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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He has stopped manufacturing parts. I looked him up and was disappointed. Thinking I missed the window by just a fraction.
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| modok wrote: |
| But now with it set that size... and you take a .020 cut....what will it do? that's what you need the junk case for. |
Exactly! I want to check it, in a real life situation before depending upon it. No reason to ruin anything good!
I had never reset the cutters. In my past we had all 5 complete sets along with the thrust cutter disc. It was dialed in. The lead machanic set it all up. I have used that bar hundreds of times but figured I had better buy one before they disappear from the marketplace.
The cutter holders are really simple. And I have a 20 and 40 set to take measurements from. Stick a round aluminum cylinder on the lathe. Machine in a few grooves, then start cutting them off. Bore out 3 hole and tap two, one for the set screw to the bar and the other to the cutter bit. Just need to bits or a source to make them from. Ohhhhh! Just hit me. Maybe a saw and bit sharpening business! I will take one to a local guy I use and see what he can come up with!
Thanks for listening once again!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:19 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| vamram wrote: |
Jimbo - Look up NSRacing. He machined the case from my '73 super salvage project and made some of the parts he needed for the .20 cut while I was at his garage. I'm not sure if he still makes them for others, but I know he has in the past.
Victor |
Thanks Victor! If I cannot produce them, I may just sell the bar. I need to be able to reproduce these as I feel that art is slowly disappearing and I absolutely hate being dependent on others for simple stuff, that I know I can do. I just need a resource for the materials.
My old shop still has this setup, so I may go by there and measure away. I am sure Maha will greet me with open arms!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Buggeee
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016
Posts: 4408
Location: Stuck in Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:43 am Post subject: Align Boring |
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Subscribed. 
Jimbo if you have your phone on you when you do your measuring, and if you are feeling indulgent with your time, would you take a picture of how you measure or what you use?
I picked up a Truline boring bar [Edit: this kit is also known as a "yellow jacket" for your searching pleasure] and thrust cutter set off the Samba classifieds. Here is a picture:
To be absolutely clear, I have no business owning a tool like this. I am a bullshitter not an engineer.
However, the closest shop that will line bore a VW case is a three hour drive in each direction. When I built my engine for the Super it was a full day round trip to drop it off and talk with the dude about the case, etc. Weeks later it was another full day to retrieve it, talk with the dude about bearing sizes, etc. Those are Saturdays for me, and quite expensive when measured in available free time.
So... I have a few 1600 engines with sloppy end play and when I get around to building one I'm going to try doing it myself for the adventure of it. I like Modok's idea of cutting it part of the way to see how the tool runs and then shaving out the rest.
Mine does not have the discs with the cutters in them. The cutters are right in the bar itself so I would guess I set the cutters proud of the bar to the size needed for that particular case, rather than swap discs with pre-measured cutters in them.
I'll be needing to get some measuring tools. My fear is I will be banned for life if I try to set this up with my Harbor Freight digital micrometer.
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1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
| SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
| Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
Last edited by Buggeee on Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
He has stopped manufacturing parts. I looked him up and was disappointed. Thinking I missed the window by just a fraction. |
That’s a shame. He was one of the more informed in the industry on boring bars. It looks like his new website is focused more on Vanagon engines, and he has limited his business to appointment only customer service. He’s not the only one in the industry to shift to main money making jobs on a selective basis. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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Yeah you guys kinda scare me. Why do you have a line boring bar?
Why not sell it to a machinist and make them do it? 
Are we in a "Post industrial society"? perhaps
You need the bits, maybe I know who to call, but what size?
The ones I use most are 8mm round, with a flat.
And usually they don't come pre-sharpened, just kind of....roughly shaped. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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I use a V-block/dial indicator thing
The last guy made some strange micrometer thingy to set size, in the last pic, but....no thanks. |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
He has stopped manufacturing parts. I looked him up and was disappointed. Thinking I missed the window by just a fraction. |
That’s a shame. He was one of the more informed in the industry on boring bars. It looks like his new website is focused more on Vanagon engines, and he has limited his business to appointment only customer service. He’s not the only one in the industry to shift to main money making jobs on a selective basis. |
Yeah, I was disappointed. I finally caved to buying a bar. The last several engines, I have driven an hour to use my old shops equipment. The last time, I was stuck in traffic for two hours. I know the value of my time and refuse to give it away, driving, to pay, to use a tool. Not my thing to do.
I get chasing the money. No blame for doing that. Would have been great meeting him and picking his brain. It is how I learn.
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Buggeee
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2016
Posts: 4408
Location: Stuck in Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| modok wrote: |
I use a V-block/dial indicator thing
The last guy made some strange micrometer thingy to set size, in the last pic, but....no thanks. |
Thanks for these pictures Modok. I checked out your gallery and followed your pictures into other threads discussing the boring bar. Saw you called it a "yellow jacket" so I ran a search for that in the gallery and found someone had uploaded the instructions for this bar, and the thrust cutter, and also pictures of the bar assembled in a case, with the original reach around bracket for the feeder. Very helpful.
Your modifications for the feeder bracket look outstanding and sturdy.
I won't be making a custom v block thingy for the dial gauge like you have but found this v block fixture for a dial gauge on Ebay so that is on its way:
It looks sturdy and should allow me to zero a dial gauge on the bar and then slide the bar forward a bit to get a read on the tip of the cutter.
_________________
1966 Sportsmobile Camper https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
72 Super Duper http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=672387
(adopted out) 61 Turkis Pile https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=728764
| SnowDaySyncro wrote: |
| Every setback is an opportunity to learn stuff and to buy new tools. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26785
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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that could work!  |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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| VW_Jimbo wrote: |
Yeah, I was disappointed. I finally caved to buying a bar. The last several engines, I have driven an hour to use my old shops equipment. The last time, I was stuck in traffic for two hours. I know the value of my time and refuse to give it away, driving, to pay, to use a tool. Not my thing to do.
I get chasing the money. No blame for doing that. Would have been great meeting him and picking his brain. It is how I learn. |
I don’t necessarily see it as chasing the money... Just as you mentioned about the value of your time, that is the circumstance I have come across when a business has a dramatic change in their model/plan. If you have multiple services bringing in similar incomes, the ones that get the least dollar per amount of time invested get dropped.
Loosing knowledgeable members of the industry, for whatever reason, is definitely a downer in the world of classic cars. |
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VW_Jimbo
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9960
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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Finally got a free day to try out the bar. Took one of my standard cases off the shelf and bored it 20 over. Worked great! Measured out great. Felt like I was back in a shop, building another engine. Lots of memories!
Going to build this case into a single port, for the 70. It is finally going to get finished and sold, but I am keeping the 2127 and the built transmission for the next project car. I am looking for an Oval right now!
Love that fresh cut saddle look!
_________________
Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
| 67rustavenger wrote: |
| GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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Ian
Samba Moderator
Joined: August 28, 2002
Posts: 4930
Location: 713
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 8:25 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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Rocky Jennings has all the parts and cutter sets. Also he has a good thrust cutter. I'm sure he can spec out the other cutter sets, but usually if the blades are clean I just run them.
The one word of advice I was given, never forget a dowel pin, always double check.
I prefer the porta tool style more than the truline.
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6595
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 20, 2019 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Align Boring |
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You make it look easy. Now all you need is a set of NOS Main bearings!
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