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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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 Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Maybe that is why it did not work for me. I'm not patient. |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| Butcher wrote: |
No joking. I just have not seen penetrating oil work to break free a fastener. This is just my experience and is not saying it does not work for others.
Once it's broken free, YES, the stuff can get into the threads and YES, the fastener does come out easier. I just do not see that it can penetrate when everything is frozen up. |
That's pretty much my experience as well. I blast the fastener with the lubricant to reduce the friction once the initial rust bond is broken, but I don't expect it to be much help prior to the break. |
I dunno. I had to break an O2 sensor loose a year or two back and it didn't budge until I heated it (the old fashioned way, by driving it) and then doused it in PBlaster. Came off with a quickness.
I think the word "penetrating" is doing some work there. So many threads about the size of refrigerant molecules and how they can escape hoses but no love for the wicking of lubricants on threaded fasteners?
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| But an O2 sensor has a crush seal on it. I bet the heat loosened it up. |
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| Maybe that is why it did not work for me. I'm not patient. |
HEAT !!
as one mechanic said " I am the God of HELLFIRE and I bring you: FIRE,
I'll take you to burn. FIRE, I'll take you to learn."
assuming of course it is in an area safe to heat...
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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CRC Knock-her Loose does well in his test, but I use a Wurth product 'cuz der Vanagon ist ein Fahrzeug des Allemans.
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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pb Blaster stinks!
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WestyBob
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sat May 04, 2019 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Merian wrote: |
as one mechanic said " I am the God of HELLFIRE and I bring you: FIRE,
I'll take you to burn. FIRE, I'll take you to learn." |
Hm-m-m ... an old song from singer Arthur Brown in '68 ?
For decades I've used a wire brush first, then oil and last torch heating. Never was unable to loosen a fastener although on occasion the bolt could be severely corroded and snap. Never had any issues between oil and heat as long as you're careful. |
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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Multiman mv
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2017
Posts: 987
Location: Martha's Vineyard, Ma
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 3:26 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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Wow, this guy must be a Canadian national treasure. That just made my morning. I think I’ve stumbled across his vids before. I may need to write some of those lines down. “Drier than a popcorn fart.” Pure YouTube gold. |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:14 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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AvE is a total hoot. I've learned a ton from his vids.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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dhaavers
Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010
Posts: 7757
Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 7:30 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Multiman mv wrote: |
| “Drier than a popcorn fart.” Pure YouTube gold. |
My mother-in-law uses that one...I love small-town talk... 
Another: "Gone like a fart on a skillet" (meaning VERY quickly)... So someone
please tell me, what is it about farts...??? <shrug>
- Dave
PS+OT: I've tried to keep an oil can of ATF+acetone around but always turns into
just a can of plain ATF. Acetone must have that fart/skillet thing going on...???
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86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32634
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:11 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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Like most good mechanics, you break a few when you are young. Once you have broken the fastener, you are screwed. You learn from that. Ignorant mechanics keep breaking bolts and wonder why. Once the bolt is broken into the object, trying to drill it perfectly centered AND at the right angle is hard when it's on the bench and even worst when working around the engine compartment. Try doing #6 glow plug on a 606 Mercedes diesel and not ruin the head.
#1 rule. Do not break the fastener! If I had to wait for the oil to work AND I charged for that, I would be out of business real quick. What happens if the oil does not penetrate? Then that is more wasted time for something that does not work.
I have not broken a bolt in 25 years, I must be doing something right. And what is that something? Heat, if it's seized and oil if the fastener is turning and starting to seize.
Again, this is my experience that works for me. There are others that swear what they do works for them. |
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Ahwahnee
Samba Member
Joined: June 05, 2010
Posts: 9810
Location: Mt Lemmon, AZ
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 8:37 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| dhaavers wrote: |
| ...I've tried to keep an oil can of ATF+acetone around but always turns into just a can of plain ATF. |
Which is the main reason I doubt the effectiveness of ATF/Acetone.
Penetrants take time to do any good and acetone is so volatile that I can't see it sticking around long enough to make a difference. |
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Zeitgeist 13
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009
Posts: 12115
Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Butcher wrote: |
| Try doing #6 glow plug on a 606 Mercedes diesel and not ruin the head. |
All those stories of DIY guys snapping off that glowplug gives me nightmares. When I bought a 606.96 to install in my S124 I winced as I preemptively unscrewed each plug. In my case the engine only has 74k and they all came out easily and with no signs of coking. I can't seem to drill a straight hole even when I'm using a drill press, so doing it with the engine in situ is highly doubtful.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Butcher
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2015
Posts: 1285
Location: Right Here
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 11:23 am Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| When I bought a 606.96 to install in my S124 I winced as I preemptively unscrewed each plug. In my case the engine only has 74k and they all came out easily and with no signs of coking. |
Very smart.
BTW, the 642's are not that much better. |
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Merian
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2014
Posts: 5212
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 12:44 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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So, what exactly do we want a penetrating oil to do?
Sure, it has to penetrate as far down as possible (see the plexiglass test).
But after that, what? Why is the torque to remove the fastener so much greater than the installation torque?
Is it giant dendrites of rust holding the male and female threads together?
Or some other corrosion product?
Or are male and female threads being "welded" together where they touch?
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WestyBob
Samba Member
Joined: June 11, 2004
Posts: 2346
Location: Portland, Oregon
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Merian wrote: |
| So, what exactly do we want a penetrating oil to do? |
I've always had success lightly tapping on a rusted nut immediately after wire brushing, warming the area up (engine idle or torch) and putting WD-40 or whatever on it, the obvious idea being trying to open channels between the nut and surface if possible for the oil. Oil on the bolt head as well. And I usually did this all at the same time without waiting long periods.
| Merian wrote: |
| Why is the torque to remove the fastener so much greater than the installation torque? |
Friction differences between new and used.
| Merian wrote: |
| Is it giant dendrites of rust holding the male and female threads together? Or some other corrosion product? Or are male and female threads being "welded" together where they touch? |
Yes to all. My experience is any bolt/nut like those being tested by AvE are so cruded up that they are not reusable anyway so breakaway and so what because the general idea I think is to eventually get the bolt off. |
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4Gears4Tires
Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2018
Posts: 3054
Location: MD
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| Posted: Sun May 05, 2019 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: penetrating oil bake-off…for amusement purposes… |
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| Butcher wrote: |
No joking. I just have not seen penetrating oil work to break free a fastener. This is just my experience and is not saying it does not work for others.
Once it's broken free, YES, the stuff can get into the threads and YES, the fastener does come out easier. I just do not see that it can penetrate when everything is frozen up. Maybe it's I'm just impatient. In my younger years, time was money. |
Huh, that's crazy. I have seen PB Blaster work, a lot. I live in MD and daily drivers get rusty, I use it all the time. It's SOP, every bolt I have never taken off before gets hit with 2 coats of PB Blaster and I am generous with my coatings.
Just today I was replacing the cv boots on the lady's TT and that axle bolt would not come out. I was hammering it with the 1/2" Milwaukee. After a few minutes I gave up, it was lunch time anyway. I sprayed it down with PB Blaster and went to lunch. While at lunch (and after a few margeritas) I decided today was the day, I'm going to Harbor Freight and buying that 1200ft/lb impact. When I got back I decided to try the Milwaukee one more time to see if the PB Blaster helped, and yep, it came off after about 5 seconds of hammering.
BTW, that HF 1200ft/lb impact broke on the 4th bolt. That's getting returned. I was impressed with AvE's tear down of it, but maybe they cheapened the manufacturing process in the mean time.
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