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JWHracing Samba Member
Joined: September 17, 2008 Posts: 234 Location: Mesa, AZ
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 8:51 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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dustymojave wrote: |
NONE of the VW or Porsche beams from the factory have parallel trailing arms at any point in their travel. They are ALL designed with the spindle ends of the arms farther apart than the beam ends. So any stock VW or Porsche beam produces substantial caster change through the range of wheel travel. That caster change increases if you allow longer wheel travel with stock length arms or install longer trailing arms. The stock ball joint spacing at the spindle is farther apart than link pin spacing as well as the beam tube spacing being greater.
However, link pin spacing at the spindle is still greater than ball joint beam tube spacing. If you use king pin arms and spindles on ball joint beam tube spacing, the spindle ends of the arms are STILL farther apart than at the beam tubes and there will still be caster change of the same sort as with a stock setup. But that caster change will be markedly less than stock. In my opinion, that is a GOOD thing.
The only thing I've ever thought that MIGHT be a reason for that dramatic stock caster change is to maintain a relatively consistent steering effort through wheel travel with the stock setup. That doesn't apply with a center-load rack and pinion whether the beam is ball joint spacing or link pin.
Some who do not understand the stock geometry nor what it is changed to with different beam spacing make statements that they have not yet been able to support in actual fact on this or any other public forum I've seen. |
As always, Dusty has hit the nail right on the head.
Doing this conversion doesn't SCREW up the geometry, it actually improves it because the caster change is less severe this way. The caster isn't a constant set degree all the way through the travel, but it is closer to constant which creates a better handling vehicle. _________________ 65 Baja - Class 5 Unlimited Race Car
2021 STORR Pro Air Cooled Buggy Champion
2019 AZOP Unlimited Buggy Champion
2017 SADR 1300 Class Champion
2016 AZOP Limited Buggy Champion
Currently "retired" from racing |
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no1clyde Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2013 Posts: 365 Location: Elko Nv.
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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When I built my car I built my beam as a true parallel beam with the tube spacing the same as the link pin spindle and my car drives very well. That puts my car in between the vw beam spacings and it works great showing that it may not matter too much how you space the beams within reason. The caster change is interesting but I think it is one of those things you can over think
Ed |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Well since I know that our friends who have offroaded MANY miles in the company of you and your car and they have expressed lots of respect for you and your car, I'd have to say it probably DOES work pretty well with it's parallel arms.
So does it work to use link pin spindles on a ball joint beam spacing?
I'd say:
"Hell yes!"
And that's without Acme's special length trailing arms that just MIGHT make for odd geometry. I don't know about that, I've not seen their arms or assembled suspension other than in their website photos. But they seem to think according to what they say in that website that normal length arms with ball joint beam tube spacing and link pin spindles make for "bad" geometry. I've yet to see any evidence or explanation of how they think that works. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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jsturtlebuggy Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005 Posts: 4496 Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Dusty, I am sure you know Greg Lewin and Brian Skipper. Many years ago now Greg built a Baja and made a beam with Ball joint spacing and Brian made extended link pin carriers for the wider spacing.
Greg Baja was featured in Dune Buggies and Hot VWs magazine back then. Greg did not get to own it for long as it was stolen out of a hotel parking lot during and off road race.
I talked with Greg about the extended carriers and he told they were needed, if you use stock carriers they would fall forward at extreme droop and the possibility of locking up suspension. _________________ Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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rodeking Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2017 Posts: 367 Location: near Buffalo NY
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 4:41 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Great explanation, thanks. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12816 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 5:37 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Dusty, I am sure you know Greg Lewin and Brian Skipper. Many years ago now Greg built a Baja and made a beam with Ball joint spacing and Brian made extended link pin carriers for the wider spacing.
Greg Baja was featured in Dune Buggies and Hot VWs magazine back then. Greg did not get to own it for long as it was stolen out of a hotel parking lot during and off road race.
I talked with Greg about the extended carriers and he told they were needed, if you use stock carriers they would fall forward at extreme droop and the possibility of locking up suspension. |
Ahh, yes, the upper trailing arm over-centering would be ugly. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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PhillipM Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2010 Posts: 595 Location: UK
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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I run a lot of castor change on my front suspension for various reasons (they give you some dynamic camber when cornering outside vs inside, anti-dive under breaking and the increase in castor on compression stabilises the front end under a heavy jump landings, etc)
That at is one of the things you have to be very careful of when setting the droops stops though - especially when you have a bit of compliance with the beam bushes, link pins, etc, etc. |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Fri May 24, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Dusty, I am sure you know Greg Lewin and Brian Skipper. Many years ago now Greg built a Baja and made a beam with Ball joint spacing and Brian made extended link pin carriers for the wider spacing.
Greg Baja was featured in Dune Buggies and Hot VWs magazine back then. Greg did not get to own it for long as it was stolen out of a hotel parking lot during and off road race.
I talked with Greg about the extended carriers and he told they were needed, if you use stock carriers they would fall forward at extreme droop and the possibility of locking up suspension. |
Yep Joseph. I worked for Greg prepping race cars at his offroad race car shop Off Road Engineering shortly after that theft at the SCORE Parker 400 and until he closed the shop down to pursue a different path he felt would provide him more income for less man hours. He never saw the car again.
I last spoke to Greg (for at least a couple of hours) at the Manx Big Bear Bash in 2016. Was good to see him.
I felt he was going for longer travel than he could get with the stock links. That would be why it needed longer links than stock.
As for Brian Skipper...I knew him in the 70s when, as a Tech Inspector I tore down a bunch of race winning engines that he built. Then after he bought Sway-A-Way, I did business with him many times. In the mid 80s, his brother Tim was a co-driver in my race buggy. Tim flipped my race car in a quadruple endo when flat out in high gear. He and his co-driver weren't hurt, BTW. When I was Tech Inspecting for MORE and MDR, 10 years ago or so, Brain was a partner in a buggy racing those series that I inspected many times.
So...yeah, I know those guys.
Greg Lewin's Baja is one of my examples of a ball joint beam tube spacing with link pin spindles.
BTW, when my Hi Jumper had 8" of wheel travel with the 8" shock towers and 8" travel shock on the extended lower shock mounts back in the 70s, I visited McKenzie's Offroad to buy some parts. At the time, McKenzie's was prepping race cars as well as selling parts. Greg Lewin was the head fabricator and prep guy for Scott McKenzie. among the cars he was responsible for at the time was the Malcolm Smith/Bud Feldkamp "ISS" buggy that dominated at most races it showed up for back then. They were also building and prepping the Tracy's Party Ice Funcos. During this one visit, Scott took me into the Prep part of the shop where Greg was working on the front suspension of that car at the time. Scott and Greg showed me that they were getting nearly 10" of travel with stock arms and reinforced (but NOT lengthened) stock shock towers. I'm still not sure quite how that was done. I couldn't figure what length the shocks had to be to make it work. Some sort of magic is the way I see it.
But...Seeing that front end inspired me to investigate ways to change the setup on my buggy which led to me using the stock lower arms and mounts with 8" shocks to get 10" of travel. That made the car quite a bit smoother. And when I took my Hi Jumper to ORE, Greg was surprised at how many inches of travel I was getting out of MY front suspension setup. A simple change with parts I already had allowed better performance. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1777 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Bump. Just found this thread. I'm going to make a conversion beam for my BJ bug, from a standard warrior beam. Cut it, space it, weld back together. Seems straightforward. _________________ Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1777 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Dusty,
On your setup you kept the stock bottom link pin shock location, but moved the top mount rearward and upward. It still uses an 8" travel "bus rear shock" right? _________________ Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2020 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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It's still 12" from the top of the upper beam tube to the upper shock mount, just as in the traditional Warrior style beam.
It IS relocated rearward for a slightly different angle for different shock function to meet what I wanted it to do. And it's working QUITE WELL.
The shock I use is a KYB Gas-A-Just 5530. Yep, that's a "Long Bus Rear" shock. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1777 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:33 am Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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I'm going to follow your recipe.
Do you have standard spindles with gussetted carriers and the speedo hole drilled? I would like to keep my stock speedo if that hole won't strand me.
Right now I'm running a full thing setup, beam adjusters, 20% SAW leafs, and KYBs. It is strong, but not much travel. My motivation for going to linkpin is more travel and a better ride. _________________ Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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I get that motivation Steve.
Yep, my spindles are the original 900,000+ mile 1958 links, arms, steering box, torsion leaves, beam and spindles. Complete with the speedo hole. I get 10.25" of travel. With that travel, I have NEVER bottomed that front end setup until a few months ago when both upper and lower adjuster grub screws broke, and then it slammed to the stops. Pissed me off because the paint on the stops and the arms where they would contact was virgin since I painted the beam in 2008 until then .
I had a hell of time getting the remains of the 1/2-13 coarse thread screws out of the discs to replace them. Hardened screws don't like to be drilled out of mild steel. I had to bore them out with a cutting torch then re-thread the holes. I replaced them with 9/16-20 thread bolts. 9/16-20 provides nearly 2x the x-section area of steel in the screw as 1/2-13. Bolts because 9/16 thread is not available in set screws.
I probably could have gone with 5/8-18 set screws, as those are available in set screws, But I was concerned about making the slots for the screws in the beam tubes much bigger. Makes for stronger screws, but weaker tube and disc. If you shop for adjusters now, you can buy "King Kong" adjusters that come with 5/8 set screws.
Note that the link reinforcement kit comes with 1 gusset for each side. The old Wright Place beefed spindles, that were the cool deal before Cecil Wright invented Combo Spindles, came with 2 1/4" thick gussets on each link. They were the one in the kit + another smaller piece stacked on the other. Place the face of that one in the kit flush with the inner face of the link forging.
If I can break both the adjuster screws at the same time without damaging the spindle shaft with speedo hole, you should be good. I find that the longer travel and not hitting the stops takes a LOT of impact force off of the spindles, which is probably what bends and breaks the spindle shanks anyway. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1777 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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I have broken an adjuster grub set screw also. CB Performance Puma model from the old days. I don't recall the thread sizes but the replacements are substantially larger. This was in my street car. I heard a TING and it sagged down. It broke sitting in the garage. Could have been bad if it broke on the street.
Thanks for the advice on this project. I'll post my results when I have some _________________ Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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Steve Arndt Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005 Posts: 1777 Location: Boise, Idaho
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Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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I have some recently rebuild spindles. Can I weld on the gussets for the carriers without ruining and distorting the reamed bushing king pin fit? _________________ Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Yup, it has bump steer with the stock steering box and 10.25" travel!
I MIG welded the gussets on with the spindles and links assembled. I recommend taking care with how hot you get things and not trying to weld it all at once. Especially if your kingpins have the plastic thrust spacers. Take your time. But if you weld the gussets on with the links and spindles disassembled, you almost certainly WILL get warpage of the link. If you just rebuilt them with the plastic spacers, you will probably have to rebuild them again installing steel spacers after you're finished with the gussets.
Note that the fenders on my low rider are clearanced for slightly smaller tires (same nominal size, different brand, on wider rims), so with these wheels and tires, the tires rub slightly on the fenders enough to leave rubber on the underside of the fenders, but do not tear them off. This is shown at FULL bump both sides with the car sitting on both stops. Last pic shows the broken old hardware. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1693
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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hey Dusty, I like that post mounted mirror. is that your own custom design or did you buy it from somewhere? _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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dustymojave Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007 Posts: 5802 Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2021 6:11 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Thank you. It's my own design and fabrication, like most of the car. I have the pieces cut and bent to make the mirror mount for the right side to match, just have never welded them together. _________________ Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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BFB Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014 Posts: 1693
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Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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I have 2 sets of doors for my Baja, a normal beetle door and a set of half doors I made. they are pinned through the hinges for easy swap but side mirror is an issue I've never been quite satisfied with which is why thought your idea was so cool, it'd work great for my situation _________________ Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
“ The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" “ - bdkw1 |
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Jerry Hundley Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2006 Posts: 1181 Location: Chester, Va
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Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Ball joint to link pin conversion beam |
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Dusty do you have any pictures of your beam? If I’m understanding correctly a link pin beam will fit a ball joint pan if you change the mounting brackets and change the shock towers? _________________ Jerry Hundley (AKA Slammed 66)
Because Stock Sucks!!!!
70 baywindow deluxe
65 slammed bug
69 bug
64 drag buggy |
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