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Clutch master cylinder replacement
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Thanks for all of this input!
Would the following be a workable sequence:
1) remove CMC - stick a stopper of some sort into the rubber supply hose from the RES.. (or if the RES cap is still ON, maybe nothing much would come out of that rubber supply hose if left un-stopped?)
2) install CMC > bleed air out of CMC thru 12mm nut
3) remove CSC - don't worry about stopping fluid
4) install CSC > top up RES > open CSC bleeder and wait for fluid to come out (does the RES cap need to be open in order for gravity to work and get fluid to the slave?)
5) normal and total bleeding @ CSC bleeder

- - -
Regarding bleeding my brakes.... I did my brakes in the Summer of 2017, and I have not driven the van much. Absolutely no leakage, and fluid totally clear in the RES.. I was planning to change all the brake fluid next summer which would mean 3years. Is this a bad idea... better to do it now?
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Last edited by epowell on Tue May 07, 2019 11:38 am; edited 2 times in total
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:32 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:
Since it sounds like you'll be replacing the slave, you might consider this:

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=717571&highlight=


Thanks for the suggestion of the "remote bleeder" for that exceedingly awkward location of the slave bleeder. However I recently figured out a really easy way to do it - but it requires removing the back wheel. I have that wheel off right now anyway because of some body work I'm doing there.
With the back wheel off I find it very easy just to crawl into the wheelwell, and reach in with my skinny arm and do the deed.
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Igeo
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Make it easy on yourself.

Open the bleeder on the slave and stick a length of vacuum hose on it so the fluid can drain overnight into a jar to contain the mess. As has been stated, the reservoir will only drain to the level of the CMC supply hose. Pump the pedal some if you want to get it all out.

Once the clutch hydraulic sytem is dry, replace both components, refill the reservoir, gravity bleed while you put most of your tools away, then do a pressure or pedal bleed at your option.

And then (as they say) "Bob is your Uncle".
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Igeo wrote:

Open the bleeder on the slave and stick a length of vacuum hose on it so the fluid can drain overnight into a jar to contain the mess. As has been stated, the reservoir will only drain to the level of the CMC supply hose. Pump the pedal some if you want to get it all out.

Once the clutch hydraulic sytem is dry, replace both components, refill the reservoir, gravity bleed while you put most of your tools away, then do a pressure or pedal bleed at your option.


Yes I see, actually it is impossible for air to get into the brake system because the CMC supply hose is high on the RES... so the RES will drain only to that point out that supply hose > the rest of the fluid must remain in the RES thereby protecting the brake system from getting AIR.
So the SLAVE will drain with bleed open, and RES cap still closed?
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Igeo
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

You might crack open the res cap, but I think they are vented, but yeah- it will drain especially if the front end is higher. That might make it easier to work on too.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Igeo wrote:
You might crack open the res cap, but I think they are vented, but yeah- it will drain especially if the front end is higher. That might make it easier to work on too.


Couple of questions:

1) I thought the draining/gravity bleeding works better with the rear raised?
2) I just read a tutorial https://campwestfalia.com/bleeding-the-vanagon-clutch-hydraulic-system/ that suggests that the clutch MUST be bled only with a vacuum bleeder, not the normal "pressure" way?
3) having the RES cap open for a long time, or if the RES is vented would mean that the fluid there would have a lot of contact with the outside air which is supposed to ruin brake fluid, no?
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Open the slave bleeder. Once the fluid has drained to the bottom level of the CMC hose hole you can flex the reservoir over a little to get some more to drain out. That will reduce the mess when you remove the master.

First, since you need to remove a bit of fluid, I would bleed a little from each of the 4 wheel bleeders as this puts fresher fluid in those key areas. The fluid is going to waste otherwise so put some of it to better use.

If you don't have a good fitting 6 point wrench to use on the wheel bleeders feel free to leave them alone. They loosen counter clockwise. I have a few feet of clear tubing to push over the bleeder nipple after I crack it lose. I leave the wrench on the bleeder flats, then slip the clear tubing over the nipple and open the bleeder again. Then I can watch what comes out of each bleeder. Should be pretty fresh looking after less than 2 years. If you can, have someone sit in the seat and push the brake pedal down while you open and then close the bleeder. Then they let the pedal up, after you close the bleeder. Repeat a few times at each wheel.

Mark
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Thanks Mark for these details... it is all getting clear to me now.
You are right, it would be very wise to at least bleed out about 1/3 liter of fluid from each brake bleeder - why not get some fresh fluid there into my nice new brake cylinders > keep 'em happy with fresh stuff Smile

I find it tricky to bleed the brakes without removing the wheels, but perhaps this is a skill I need to acquire.
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

I am sure hoping this change of master/slave will cure my shifting problem.
Here is a 6 second vid I took 2 days ago showing how far my clutch arm is being moved with a full pedal pushing... does this look normal? To me it looks probably normal. . . . . but I did notice even a month or so ago that if I didn't press the pedal ALL the way down it would grind.
Anyhow I'm hoping . . .

Link

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Vanagon Nut
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Hope this link works for you.

Video of clutch lever travel on my 1988 westy:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/N3sEJytpLU2Z9mZk6

On that van, with the WBX or VW inline engine (thus relevant clutch), never had any shifting issues and clutch always engages - disengages normally.


Neil.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Vanagon Nut wrote:
Hope this link works for you.

Video of clutch lever travel on my 1988 westy:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/N3sEJytpLU2Z9mZk6

On that van, with the WBX or VW inline engine (thus relevant clutch), never had any shifting issues and clutch always engages - disengages normally.


Neil.


It's hard to say... probably mine is a tiny tad shy of yours.
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vwoldbug
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Make sure you have the correct hose from the reservoir to the clutch master cylinder . I think it originally had the blue hose .
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
1) I thought the draining/gravity bleeding works better with the rear raised?
2) I just read a tutorial https://campwestfalia.com/bleeding-the-vanagon-clutch-hydraulic-system/ that suggests that the clutch MUST be bled only with a vacuum bleeder, not the normal "pressure" way?
3) having the RES cap open for a long time, or if the RES is vented would mean that the fluid there would have a lot of contact with the outside air which is supposed to ruin brake fluid, no?


No need to raise either end to bleed hydraulics. Some do so for bleeding coolant but I have never had too.

Vacuum bleed only? News to me (i.e. I have done it countless times using pressure).

Cap open? As someone noted, the cap is vented so you do not have to open but possibly it will drain faster (if that is your plan) if you remove the cap for just that interval.

Lately I have been using a pressure bleeder made from a bicycle inner tube:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cut through, one end folded and clamped, the other secure on the cap:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Pump it until it balloons then open a bleeder:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Rinse, repeat, as needed.

BTW - I always remove the front tires to bleed those brakes, the rears I can reach fine with the tires on the ground.
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

vwoldbug wrote:
Make sure you have the correct hose from the reservoir to the clutch master cylinder . I think it originally had the blue hose .


I believe mine still has the original hose - might have been blue in 1984. The nice thing about using the right size is that it doesn't even need a clamp.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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epowell
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Shocked Shocked Shocked That thing looks like it is going to come alive and attack somebody Shocked Laughing

...Wow, very very clever idea!
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shagginwagon83
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2019 5:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Ahwahnee wrote:


I believe mine still has the original hose - might have been blue in 1984. The nice thing about using the right size is that it doesn't even need a clamp.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


83.5 here. Looks exactly same at your 84.

While we are on this, what are the thoughts on this new Clutch Master Cylinder hose from Burley Motorsports? $29 stainless steel

https://burleymotorsports.net/product/clutch-master-cylinder-hose/
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epowell
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:

With the reservoir topped off, open the clutch bleeder and wait for gravity to get the fluid back there and running out.


Does anyone have an idea how long it is supposed to take for the fluid to reach the slave during this gravity bleed?

Will it speed things up if I start normal bleeding even before fluid gets back there.... or will normal bleeding even work without fluid back there?
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

OK - fluid arrived... it took about 30min.
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:21 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

Never done the gravity bleed so no help on this one. Cool
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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Clutch master cylinder replacement Reply with quote

You don't have to gravity bleed at all; I just do it that way to start as it gives me an opportunity to put tools away, have a beer etc. But you can pressure or pedal bleed right away. If you pedal bleed it, it is good to have a helper work the pedal while you open/close the slave bleeder.
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