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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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 Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Pulled the engine today, it would sill do 76mph I will be doing a full rebuild on the 36 horse engine while I run the 1679cc with dual Zenith NDIX32x25 Carburetors. I will post more photos etc... soon....
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Helfen
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Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3449
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Pulled the engine today, it would sill do 76mph I will be doing a full rebuild on the 36 horse engine while I run the 1679cc with dual Zenith NDIX32x25 Carburetors. I will post more photos etc... soon.... |
I'm assuming you have the split case trans? do not swap in a 40 hp tunnel type unless it's a standard models trans. The type 111 in a European 36HP model up to 1965 does have a tunnel type, uses a 4.43 Ring and pinion but they are rare. If you choose to use a type 113 deluxe 40 HP transaxle with a 4.375 R&P the 36hp engine will be a dog, and mileage will also suffer even with large Piston/liners torque is just not there.
Make sure your machinist balances the whole rotating assy. also have him or you check the Line bore on the crankcase mains and cam bore and check cam bore for proper oil clearance---I have seen many nice 36hp cases thrown away because the cam bore is worn too big or is eccentric.
I have a 65 36 hp and the factory compression ratio in these later 36hp engines is 7.2 to one instead of the old ones at 6.6. |
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fl59bug
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Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:14 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| TinCanFab wrote: |
| Danwvw wrote: |
| Getting the engine in and out is kind of a big deal for me. I have not done it since 2013 on my bus then. Had quite a hard time. I want to fix the 60 trans miss match to the 61-66 trans in it while I am at it. Also the later 61-66 trans in it has a lot of wear and makes a bit of noise in neutral and different noises in different gears and jumps out of 3rd on hills. I have never rebuilt a trans and with the exhaust valve leaking like this I will probably not drive it much till all is repaired. One reason I chose a 1960 is because it has a 36 horse and I am looking forward to tearing it down. I saw this ad 36HP Rocker Arm Solid Shaft/911 Adjuster Services Price: $150/$65 where a guy makes the rockers solid any ideas on if that's a good thing to do? |
I would not attempt to rebuild your transmission without getting very familiar with the process first. You'll need a shift fork jig, press, gear stack removal tool, pinion nut socket/or alignment studs (depending on trans year), etc. You can see some of this stuff in my bug build thread. Cost of tools and labor add up extremely fast. |
Thanks for the replies, Not Sure what to do yet, Sill in the Day Dream Stage. And. Want to definitely avoid any NightMares! Sounds like a Professionally Rebuilt Trans will be needed.
Back to the 36 Horse Engine Rebuild Day Dream: When I do Rebuild the 36, are there any modifications that can be done and would they devalue the car? I Love the way the Stock 36 Horse moves the car around around town. It's part of the experience I was seeking when we purchased the 1960 beetle.
I see AA has the 80mm P&C Kits now but don't they need the case spigots opened and wouldn't they use a little more gas? Would they devalue the car? What about full flow oil modifications so a filter could be added? That would probably
it too? |
Are you okay if I quote the period at the end of the first sentence above:
?
I wanted to check before doing so to avoid plagiarism!!
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fl59bug
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Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 8:18 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| That's awesome you have the 1679 to run while you rebuild the 36-er. I like having a spare engine, but unfortunately if my 40 bites the dust my bug will sit until I get my expensive Okrasa setup finished. |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 9:52 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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The trans coming out of my 1960 beetle has a 1962 Trans ID number, it's noisy jumps out of 3rd under a load and the engine hangs low with the 62 tunnel trans and the car did not handle right. I should have it out shortly and will be installing the 68 trans tomorrow. Have to figure out how to solve the low hanging low problem. I think the front mount un bolts from the torsion tube and I bought a new weld on one. Hoping I can make it to the weld shop driving the car or maybe even better figure a way to bolt it on.
As far as the 68 trans playing well with the 36 horse engine I will give it a try but I did want it to be original. I have a 59 crash box trans but I hate those things.
The plan for the 36 horse engine is to completely disassemble and do a full rebuild. Not sure about new p&c's maybe just new rings will be needed. It has a leaking exhaust valve the heads will get rebuilt etc.. I have not seen new exhaust valves available anywhere do people use intake valves for the exhaust valves?
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fl59bug
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Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:07 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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I have a '61 tranny in my '59, and until recently the tail pipes would hit the apron, due to the wonky triangle shaped front mount.
I purchased a bus nose cone, hockey stick and backup light plug from WW, installed these, and I couldn't be happier. The engine now sits at the right angle.
My only issue ( a big one though) is that the trans pops out of 4th unless I hold it in gear. Benco tranny is in my immediate future! |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 10:12 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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I read where that bus nose cone didn't hang the engine right eather. I thought that is what mine had but maybe not, I will know in a bit.
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fl59bug
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Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:24 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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I could be wrong, but now that you mention it I think I do recall seeing that '60 cars may not be a direct fit for the bus nosecone and hockey stick.
I believe my '58-'60 Bentley manual mentions that the angle of the drive train was made different for 1960 only, but again this is only my foggy recollection.
good luck!
Ted |
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Helfen
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Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3449
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 11:32 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
The trans coming out of my 1960 beetle has a 1962 Trans ID number, it's noisy jumps out of 3rd under a load and the engine hangs low with the 62 tunnel trans and the car did not handle right. I should have it out shortly and will be installing the 68 trans tomorrow. Have to figure out how to solve the low hanging low problem. I think the front mount un bolts from the torsion tube and I bought a new weld on one. Hoping I can make it to the weld shop driving the car or maybe even better figure a way to bolt it on.
As far as the 68 trans playing well with the 36 horse engine I will give it a try but I did want it to be original. I have a 59 crash box trans but I hate those things.
The plan for the 36 horse engine is to completely disassemble and do a full rebuild. Not sure about new p&c's maybe just new rings will be needed. It has a leaking exhaust valve the heads will get rebuilt etc.. I have not seen new exhaust valves available anywhere do people use intake valves for the exhaust valves? |
So your going from a 40hp 4.375 which is not good for a 36hp to a 4.125 and a stock 36hp is a 4.43 ? That will really dog a 36hp down. |
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Danwvw
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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"fl59bug" Thanks yes the 60 is a problem I have read the best solution is to weld the front bracket where it needs to be with the correct nose cone for the transaxle that is going into the car. Here is the photo of the Nose Cone. That came out of the car on the 62 trans. Not sure what it is:
Also
"Helfen Let me see if I understand what your saying about the 36 Horse engine and the gearing.
So a Higher number Gear Ratio is taller right? So the 36 horse trans was the tallest then? So what you're saying is that a 36 horse engine will need to turn higher RPM's with the 4.125? So I can find the gear calculator on CB performance and try to figure this out. So what are we talking 2 mph error or so?
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
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Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Higher number gear ratios are shorter, smaller numbers are taller. Shorter gears require more revs for the same speed than taller gears. An engine designed to be mated with 4.43 gearing will struggle when paired with 4.12 gearing because it has less mechanical advantage with the taller gears -- in other words, taller gears require more torque to maintain the same speed.
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Danwvw
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Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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For reference: Official WTF Transmission do I have/should I get thread.
Ok thanks I had if backwards, So I did the Gear Calculator and it looks like 3600 RPM will be 74 MPH With 25.4" tires and the 68 trans with (4.12 ring & pinion) with (.89 4th gear)
and the original calculates to be with the (4.43 R&P) same tires, but I don't know the 4th gear ratio on the 60 beetle so I assumed it was .89 the same as the later models?
The calculator says 3600 is 69 mph. So it may not go as fast as it does now!
Calculated This:
1960 split case (4.43) 3.60 / 1.94 / 1.22 / 0.82 =75 mph @ 3600 RPM
use 62 Swing (4.375) 3.80 / 2.06 / 1.32 / 0.89 = 70 @ mph 3600 RPM
use 68 Swing (4.12) 3.80 / 2.06 / 1.26 / 0.89 = 74 @ mph 3600 RPM
Better the calculator says 75 mph with original the .82 4th saves the day!
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fl59bug
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Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| Higher number gear ratios are shorter, smaller numbers are taller. Shorter gears require more revs for the same speed than taller gears. An engine designed to be mated with 4.43 gearing will struggle when paired with 4.12 gearing because it has less mechanical advantage with the taller gears -- in other words, taller gears require more torque to maintain the same speed. |
Maybe helpful, maybe it adds nothing but... I believe the gear ratio is the number of turns of the pinion to each turn of the ring gear, so a 4.37 ratio means the pinion turns 4.37 times for each revolution of the ring gear.
From that perspective (at least for me) it makes it easier to understand why shorter (numerically higher) gears can turn a taller tire. The driveline has less resistance to get and keep that tire moving. On the other hand, the smaller the tire, the higher the revs of the engine when running a short gear set. Numerically higher gear sets are coveted by owners of full size trucks, because a 38 inch tire works a lot better with say, a 4.56 R&P than it would with a 3.54 R&P. Ask me how I know that lol. |
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Helfen
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Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Tue Sep 29, 2020 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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[quote="fl59bug"]
| mukluk wrote: |
| Higher number gear ratios are shorter, smaller numbers are taller. Shorter gears require more revs for the same speed than taller gears. An engine designed to be mated with 4.43 gearing will struggle when paired with 4.12 gearing because it has less mechanical advantage with the taller gears -- in other words, taller gears require more torque to maintain the same speed. |
Maybe helpful, maybe it adds nothing but... I believe the gear ratio is the number of turns of the pinion to each turn of the ring gear, so a 4.37 ratio means the pinion turns 4.37 times for each revolution of the ring gear.
That's correct.
The reason the 36hp engine uses a 4.43 R&P is because the 36 hp engine produces less torque than a 40hp engine which uses a 4.375 R&P. The 36hp needs higher engine rpm at 60mph than a 40 hp does.
Remember the 36hp engine from 1960 back was only designed for a 68MPH top speed, at that speed the 36hp engine's rpm is not dangerous and it's HP & torque high gear is as fast as it will go will not overrev it. The way the engine is designed with the transaxle gear ratio you can cruise at wide open throttle and not over rev. the engine.
The 40 hp engine has a top speed of 72MPH and a 4.375 ratio. With the same reasoning applied to a engine HP and final drive ratio you will never over rev. a 40 hp at wide open throttle in 4th gear. Put that 40hp engine with the 36hp transaxle and you might, use a 53hp engine or 60hp engine and you will certainly over rev. one of them.
VW had a way of governing their engine so they could run at flat out but not kill the engine. |
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pastellgreen
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Posts: 1045
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:12 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| I Love the way the Stock 36 Horse moves the car around around town. It's part of the experience I was seeking when we purchased the 1960 beetle. |
When you love it, don't change the set up. With new stock pistons and cylinders and a good rebuild, with stock distributor and it's vacuum can you will have a stronger, but stock car. You'll love it more. |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Wed Sep 30, 2020 10:49 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Yeah, in the end I do want this car to be stock or to be able to be stock. Part of why I got it is to rebuild a 36 horse engine again. I rebuilt a couple 36's back in the 70's Loved it.
I think the Okrasa's are great but I am not wanting that. I still need to source an original distributor, It has a German 009 and with the leaking exhaust valve and a cracked intake manifold and with the engine hanging an Inch low and a noisy trans that jumps out of 3rd and a loud header hanging all over the place it's not what I remember from the 36 horse cars I owned in the 70's.
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Rome
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Quote: |
| I will be doing a full rebuild on the 36 horse engine while I run the 1679cc with dual Zenith NDIX32x25 Carburetors |
Installing the 1679 will be much more involved than putting the 36 hp back in. Flywheel clearancing in bellhousing, starter gear, fresh air style heater box interference with front firewall, narrow width of the engine bay, H apron that reduces the front-to-rear installation clearance, cutting down the 1600-style rear breastplate. You'd probably find it much easier to build up a mild 40 hp based engine with big bore cylinders, 1.1 rockers, and a 30-PICT-1 carb. Many people fit the later, 1600-based engines into H apron Beetles and usually don't mention these inherent installation preps and details. |
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Danwvw
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Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Hi "Rome" Yeah tell me about it:
1679 Narrow 31.5 inch configuration Converted to 6 volt, jtubes and Tin snips in hand. Yes, the "S" is going to hit the fan soon, Weill find out, my neighbor tack welded the front late model swing axle nose mount today. I will assemble the 68 transaxle with the 60 axles and mock it up with the 36 horse engine re-installed first.
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EVfun
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| Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Helfen wrote: |
The reason the 36hp engine uses a 4.43 R&P is because the 36 hp engine produces less torque than a 40hp engine which uses a 4.375 R&P. The 36hp needs higher engine rpm at 60mph than a 40 hp does.
Remember the 36hp engine from 1960 back was only designed for a 68MPH top speed, at that speed the 36hp engine's rpm is not dangerous and it's HP & torque high gear is as fast as it will go will not overrev it. The way the engine is designed with the transaxle gear ratio you can cruise at wide open throttle and not over rev. the engine.
The 40 hp engine has a top speed of 72MPH and a 4.375 ratio. With the same reasoning applied to a engine HP and final drive ratio you will never over rev. a 40 hp at wide open throttle in 4th gear. Put that 40hp engine with the 36hp transaxle and you might, use a 53hp engine or 60hp engine and you will certainly over rev. one of them.
VW had a way of governing their engine so they could run at flat out but not kill the engine. |
The gears, 1 through 4, are all taller on the 36 horse split case transaxle. The result is that a tunnel transaxle with a 4.125 R&P is the closest gearing match to the original split case box with the 4.43 R&P. First through third are just slightly taller, while 4th is still slightly lower. The smaller 3 to 4 jump should help the 36 horse where it struggles most. I'm running a 36 horse with a 40 horse box and voluntarily limit the top speed to 65mph to keep the rpm in line.
| Code: |
1955 1960 40 HP ’67
1st 15.94 15.94 16.63 15.68
2nd 8.34 8.60 9.01 8.50
3rd 5.44 5.39 5.78 5.20
4th 3.61 3.64 3.89 3.67
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As far as fitting the transaxle, 1960 was the first year VW started the slight angle of the engine and transaxle. As a part of that change the hockey stick was moved higher on the front of the transaxle. So the '61 and newer tunnel transaxles have the shift rod in the right place to fit the engine correctly. The problem is that the front mount came out from the center of the torsion housing through '60. So the Bus nose cone has the right spacing between the shift rod and housing to bolt in, but has both of them too low to work correctly. That is why the engine hangs low if you use the Bus nosecone conversion in that one year. The only correct answer for a '60 is to weld in the later from mount to run the later Bug transaxle with the standard Bug nose cone. The only correct answer for an earlier Bug is to run the Bus nose cone and mount to mount the transaxle in the earlier position, slightly higher and level with the frame. VW made this drivetrain mounting change to lower the axles and reduce rear camber. Here is a great description and illustrations to show the changes.
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