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petrol punk
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2007
Posts: 977
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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 Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:50 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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I thought the split case still had a 4.375 r&p with the taller 3.6 1st and 0.82 4th? That puts it at almost identical gearing to the later 4.125 r&p trannys with a 3.8 1st and 0.89 4th. Me personally, I would prefer the lowest gearing possible which I thought was the 40hp trans with a 4.375 r&p and 3.8 1st / 0.89 4th. My 36hp struggles to get up to speed around town, and it's downright scary when you hit a hill on the freeway and are doing 45mph WOT while people blast by you at 85mph. Low gearing might lower cruising speed but acceleration and max speed up hills should improve
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36hp '56 European DeLuxe oval, '70 bug 1835cc dual 36DRLA, and a '98 4x4 5spd single cab Tacoma |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:30 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Owners of '61 - '63 cars have it good. They don't have to do all that goofy hacking just to fit an engine with enough power to not get run over in traffic, while they retain the small windows and giant fabric sunroof many of us are so fond of. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| EVfun wrote: |
As far as fitting the transaxle, 1960 was the first year VW started the slight angle of the engine and transaxle. As a part of that change the hockey stick was moved higher on the front of the transaxle. So the '61 and newer tunnel transaxles have the shift rod in the right place to fit the engine correctly. The problem is that the front mount came out from the center of the torsion housing through '60. So the Bus nose cone has the right spacing between the shift rod and housing to bolt in, but has both of them too low to work correctly. That is why the engine hangs low if you use the Bus nosecone conversion in that one year. The only correct answer for a '60 is to weld in the later from mount to run the later Bug transaxle with the standard Bug nose cone. The only correct answer for an earlier Bug is to run the Bus nose cone and mount to mount the transaxle in the earlier position, slightly higher and level with the frame. VW made this drivetrain mounting change to lower the axles and reduce rear camber. Here is a great description and illustrations to show the changes. |
Thanks "EVfun" Your description above is the best explanation I have seen on "The Samba" about fitting Swing Axles in Bugs! Much appreciated.
We just did a tack weld and today I got the 68 Trans Mocked Up with the partly disassembled 36 horse engine reinstalled. Yes it fits perfect!
Some Photos:
68 Weld in Transaxle Front Mount Bracket adaptor:
Mounted:
Centered:
Tight:
Flush:
Even Gaps:
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths! |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2020 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Swing Axle Side Cover Torque Specs? |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| This thread says Torque Spec's! for the side covers to the transaxle torque to 22 ft lbs. Does that sound right? Seems high! |
The bolts holding the axle tube retainers to the side covers are torqued to 14 ft lb. You may need more than one gasket so the axle tube doesn't bind when the cover is tightened. 22 ft lb. is for the side covers to the transaxle case.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:55 pm Post subject: Transaxle Axle to Axle Tube Play |
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Say "EVfun" do you know about axle play? I have the short axles installed and torqued, it used 2 axle tube gaskets on each side to get it set-up right. But after pressing the wheel bearings on until they seated on the axles there is all this play just on the Left axle between the bearing and axle tube?
Left Side has 5/16" play:
Right Side no play:
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Mon Oct 05, 2020 6:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Snort
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2005
Posts: 1957
Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2020 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Your bearing movement is normal and not related to axle tube to transaxle case adjustments. The wheel bearings need the covers to be installed in order to hold the bearing and axle in place. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Looks nice!!!
What is going on with the 2 ignition coils? I'm super curious about that. Are you perhaps electrically stacking them somehow to get the secondary voltage really high, or just putting 12 volts across two 6 volt coils, or something else altogether?
Also, is that the stock 36hp shroud pictured being used with the 1679 but with a 90mm 12 volt generator, or is the whole setup still 6 volts?
[EDIT: after reviewing the earlier posts, it "looks" like you're running the whole shebang still on 6 volts.] 
Sorry for all the questions!
Again very nice and great job.
Ted |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Thanks "fl59bug".
The wired in place extra coil is what you do at 10:00Pm when it wont't start because it was a 12volt coil the only thing I forgot in converting it to a total 6 volt setup. The 36 Shroud is a doghouse available from CB Performance.
I've never had a bug before with this much power. It's a trip, Needs better brakes!
Build sheet
35.5mm X 32mm Valves L3 Dual Port heads (Note! 3/4" Reach 14mm Plugs),
W-100 cam,
Steal Scat manifolds Sanders and Sons aluminum intake manifolds,
Dual Zenith NDIX 32 P010 carbs configured without choke and with Porsche No pathway between ports Bases.
24mm 25mm venturi's,
Jets:
180 210 Air correction,
120 main,
50 idle jets
Long fuel pumps, 55 Accel Pump Jets, #2 Nozzles (Which are large). (Linkage leverage set for least fuel).
Stock ish 1679cc Dual Port Type 1 VW Engine fully modified to 6 volts:
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Sun Oct 11, 2020 7:02 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
For reference: Official WTF Transmission do I have/should I get thread.
Ok thanks I had if backwards, So I did the Gear Calculator and it looks like 3600 RPM will be 74 MPH With 25.4" tires and the 68 trans with (4.12 ring & pinion) with (.89 4th gear)
and the original calculates to be with the (4.43 R&P) same tires, but I don't know the 4th gear ratio on the 60 beetle so I assumed it was .89 the same as the later models?
The calculator says 3600 is 69 mph. So it may not go as fast as it does now!
Calculated This:
1960 split case (4.43) 3.60 / 1.94 / 1.22 / 0.82 =75 mph @ 3600 RPM
use 62 Swing (4.375) 3.80 / 2.06 / 1.32 / 0.89 = 70 @ mph 3600 RPM
use 68 Swing (4.12) 3.80 / 2.06 / 1.26 / 0.89 = 74 @ mph 3600 RPM
Better the calculator says 75 mph with original the .82 4th saves the day! |
cars with a 4.43:1 have a 0.80 4th |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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Yeah, that is even more overdrive 77 mph and if you go by the Kennedy Clutch Numbers it's a 0.79 4th making it 78mph at 3600 RPM, almost as tall as my 56 356A was.
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
| Yeah, that is even more overdrive 77 mph and if you go by the Kennedy Clutch Numbers it's a 0.79 4th making it 78mph at 3600 RPM |
That's what makes the 36hp live as it will never get to ten mph of 78 unless it's a 65 factory 36hp with 7.2 compression, even so they only go 72 |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2020 10:30 pm Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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With the 62 trans it was achieving 76mph even with the Burned #2 Exhaust valve. Glad I saved it getting it out while it was still running. I have had other 36 horse engines, I had a 1959 Beetle and a different 1960 Beetle years ago. I do think they were topped out at 72 mph. Sorry for the 40 Horse Air cleaner the 36 horse Air Cleaner I have doesn't seem to fit!
1960 36 horse VW Beetle Engine Before tear down:
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1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!
Last edited by Danwvw on Mon Oct 12, 2020 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 8:16 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Helfen wrote: |
| cars with a 4.43:1 have a 0.80 4th |
According to Progressive Refinements starting in early 1957 all of the split case 3 syncro transaxles came with the 4.43 ring and pinion (31/7 teeth.) Previously the Gleason ring an pinion used was 4.38 (35/8 teeth.) The gear ratio difference is insignificant, about 1%.
Starting about the 1958 model Bugs 4th gear was changed to 0.82 (23/28 teeth.) Bugs 1956 and older used a 0.81 4th gear (22/27 teeth.) 1957 Bugs could have come with either 4th gear. The gear ratio difference is insignificant, slightly less than 1%. These 2 changes together mean that the older oval era split case 3 syncro box has about 2% taller gearing, about a 70 rpm change at top speed (VW says 68mph.)
The 40 horse full syncro box has a 0.89 4th gear (24/27 teeth.) The ring and pinion was switched to 4.375 (35/8 teeth.) It is the gear ratios used, 1st through 4th, that result in the lower overall gear ratios in the 40 horse tunnel transaxle.
My oval has a 40 horse gear box and I agree that it lets the 36 horse engine exceed 70 mph in a Bug on level ground. However, that makes the gearing about 7% lower than stock, so I limit my top speed to 65 mph. That is roughly the rpm the engine would do at 70 mph with a stock transaxle and the Ghia could do that.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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Helfen
Samba Member
Joined: January 19, 2009
Posts: 3450
Location: Vulcania
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| Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2020 9:04 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| Helfen wrote: |
| cars with a 4.43:1 have a 0.80 4th |
According to Progressive Refinements starting in early 1957 all of the split case 3 syncro transaxles came with the 4.43 ring and pinion (31/7 teeth.) Previously the Gleason ring an pinion used was 4.38 (35/8 teeth.) The gear ratio difference is insignificant, about 1%.
Starting about the 1958 model Bugs 4th gear was changed to 0.82 (23/28 teeth.) Bugs 1956 and older used a 0.81 4th gear (22/27 teeth.) 1957 Bugs could have come with either 4th gear. The gear ratio difference is insignificant, slightly less than 1%. These 2 changes together mean that the older oval era split case 3 syncro box has about 2% taller gearing, about a 70 rpm change at top speed (VW says 68mph.)
The 40 horse full syncro box has a 0.89 4th gear (24/27 teeth.) The ring and pinion was switched to 4.375 (35/8 teeth.) It is the gear ratios used, 1st through 4th, that result in the lower overall gear ratios in the 40 horse tunnel transaxle.
My oval has a 40 horse gear box and I agree that it lets the 36 horse engine exceed 70 mph in a Bug on level ground. However, that makes the gearing about 7% lower than stock, so I limit my top speed to 65 mph. That is roughly the rpm the engine would do at 70 mph with a stock transaxle and the Ghia could do that. |
Back in the day when I was a VW unit repair mechanic around 1971-72, I rebuilt my 65 36hp 1200 "A" Custom transaxle. a 4.43 R&P and 0.80 4th.
Up until that time I had no Idea that 1200"A" and 1200"A" Custom models had those gears in a fully synchromesh tunnel type transaxle. |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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makin_vw
Samba Member
Joined: January 30, 2011
Posts: 62
Location: san martin CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 9:46 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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| Danwvw wrote: |
With the 62 trans it was achieving 76mph even with the Burned #2 Exhaust valve. Glad I saved it getting it out while it was still running. I have had other 36 horse engines, I had a 1959 Beetle and a different 1960 Beetle years ago. I do think they were topped out at 72 mph. Sorry for the 40 Horse Air cleaner the 36 horse Air Cleaner I have doesn't seem to fit!
1960 36 horse VW Beetle Engine Before tear down:
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That is a good looking fuel filter setup! what issue are you having on the filter fitment? |
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Danwvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 31, 2012
Posts: 8892
Location: Oregon Coast
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| Posted: Thu Oct 15, 2020 10:13 am Post subject: Re: 1960 Beetle Original 36 Horse |
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No issues with the filter. When we first got the car it was having trouble starting and staying running, the problem was a blockage at the fuel reserve valve but I rebuilt the fuel pump, cleaned the gas tank and took the carb all apart in the process of getting it running. Once the valves were adjusted it Idled fine on all 4 cylinders for a few hundred miles then #2 exhaust valve got tight again and it would lope at idle "#2" but run ok. That is why I pulled it for rebuild. I have it on the Bench but haven't taken it apart past the tin yet!
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