67 Sunroof Engine Build

[nsracing]

If you get hung up on stuff, give me a PM or call. I will set you straight.

I am down the street from you.

[jpaull]

67 sunroof, theres your balancing answer above. NSRacing is known for doing great balance work.

[Mike Fisher]

I would take it to nsracing and have him build you a 1904 or 2007?
Tram & Matt built/guaranteed my 1600 for me, but you are in the home stretch of building it yourself!
_________________
https://imgur.com/user/FisherSquareback/posts
69 FI/AT square Daily Driver
66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
'68 Karmann Ghia sold

Society is like stew. If you don't keep it stirred up you end up with a lot of scum on the top! - Russ_Wolfe/Edward Abbey

[67 Sunroof]

[67 Sunroof]

Ok, so after a brief hiatus I am back.
I’ve managed to get the majority of my parts and have begun to prep the block:
My crapload of parts ready for my build! I also paid extra for CB to balance the assembly. Not sure what is involved but they suggested I purchased the clutch/flywheel from them so they could balance the whole assembly to within 1 gram tolerance. I don’t think that is a dynamic balance is it? I mean the Chinese cb crank has counter weights so that should help right? Such a shame. All of this money for Chinese made parts. I know-I am an idiot!

Dellorto drla 40’s, R2C air cleaners, and Outerwear prefilters. Will I still need jet doctors with the filters and prefilters? I’ve read from many people NOT to use the jet doctors in Dellortos. Thoughts?

My nice and free Stainless work table from work! I’m pretty proud of this. The edges are beveled to keep small parts from “disappearing”. Haha.
Oops! The gun made its way into this photo. I’ll use that later on when something goes wrong. Notice I didn’t say “if” I said “when”

Aluminum plugs...I decided to order a new set of steel plugs from John @ Aircooled.net. I’ve read some horror stories of people trying to get those suckers out of the block. Modok suggested steel plugs and Loctite 565 because it seals really nice and threads in plugs like butta.

My gallery cleaning tools are ready:

Plugs have been pulled, tapped and ready for steel npt plugs. Welded behind #3, align bored .020, full flowed, new 10mm case savers, and cut for 90.5 cylinders.

Bearings have been marked for easier installation into the dowel pins.

I used a Dremel and a small carbide blade to notch the oil hole a bit.

Pulled the oil pickup out. I’ve read somewhere to make sure to screw the oil pan studs in really well to keep them from coming out of the case on oil changes? Any suggestions would be appreciated!

So this is where I am. Any thoughts/suggestions for me to do while the case is split?
I purchased double thrust cam bearings and had to notch it slightly to fit. I noticed the end cam bearing was slightly overlapping an oil gallery so I trimmed the corner a little bit. Hope this was a good idea...?

Here is where I trimmed a little off the corner of the bearing...

Main bearings: I was told by an engine BUILDER that Silverline were still some of the best bearings due to them being steel backed. Made sense so I bought them.

Cam bearings: The same builder said to get the double thrust cam bearings so my wallet got a bit thinner...

So in this pic you can see 96.2mm on the cutouts. I set in the cylinders and they fit very loosely.? Shouldn’t they fit pretty tight in the holes?? The pistons/cylinders are Mahle forged ones but that shouldn’t matter. Is this right?

I should have my stainless header and exhaust from Tiger this week. Can’t wait. Been waiting for like 4 months? His quality of work is top notch though. Good work takes time guys!
Sooooo, at this point I am looking for some builders tips and tricks to help my motor run cooler, smoother, and just better. Any thoughts? De-burr the case? Chamfer the cam lobes? Notch the lifters? Etc.....

[Pruneman99]

The silverline mains I got were perfect. The double thrust silverline cam bearings were junk. All THREE sets I tried to make work. I had to order Mahle cam bearings 3 times as well. The vendors kept sending the "upgraded" silverlines in their place..

But, when I finally got a set of Mahle, they fit perfect. Cam spins like glass. The silverline just didn't fit right even after futzing around with them doing all the tricks. As soon as the case halves went together they would go all taco shaped and pinch the cam. I think they actually needed ground down on the parting line.

[67 Sunroof]

Well that sucks! They appear to fit well. My plan is to get the case work all done and then set the mains and cam bearings in....then drop the crank and cam/gear in being careful not to pinch anything. I guess I’ll see when I get to it.
Some questions that have been on my mind:
Should I use an electrical or mechanical fuel pump?

With a slim (1 1/2”) sump will I need to extend my oil pickup tube?

What full flow setup is easy to remove when it comes time to do it? (Like an easy disconnect)

Will I need an oil cooler? I have all tins and functioning flaps as well as all new engine bay seals.

Cam gear is an aluminum cb one. I guess they just don’t make +1, +2, +3 like they did from the factory for better gear mesh.? We are just stuck with what we get?

This “serpentine system”-it’s cool as hell, and I bought a welded, balanced fan in case but the jury is split on these as they hardly slip.

Will my engine compartment supply enough incoming air for my drla 40’s AND the fan? It seems they might fight each other for incoming air???

Transmission-I’m not positive it’s working. I pulled the nosecone and replaced all seals. Pulled side plates and cleaned inside REALLY well. Replaced (and measured) plates and clearances. Finally replaced axle shafts and fulcrums after cleaning the hell out of them...
I put new German boots (pointing about 10 and 2 o clock) and filled with amsoil fluid. New German throw out bearing and heavy duty throw out bearing shaft. It appears to shift well sitting still but haven’t driven it since I bought it. How do I check with no motor in the bug?????

[67 Sunroof]

So here is what I managed to get done today...
This work is based off of www.johnmaherracing.com website. It’s packed full of very interesting theoretical items and I decided to incorporate a few into my build. The 1st would be the rear oil exit hole. Here is the stock hole:

After enlarging it slightly, and chamfering the hole for better flow here is what I wound up with:

I also cleaned up the hole inside of any sharp edges:

Next is the cam journals. The article listed in the above link mentions widening the grooves slightly and he even carved out a small groove to help with oil flow (about 15%) to the main cam bearings.
Before:

After: (helps aid in getting more oil to the second half of the case)

Next on my agenda will be tapping the oil pump outlet hole (doing full flow) to avoid the low pressure oil light while idling or low rpm’s.
Tomorrow I plan on opening the “windows” for better air transfer and better case windage.
I also need to check the lifter bores for smooth travel.
Speaking of lifters I purchased the cb ultralight lifters. Would the modification of connecting the grooves be a good idea? I have 2 thoughts on this:
1- if it’s so good, wouldn’t cb have already done it on the lifters to start with?
2- it aids in the lifter “turning” in the bore and will minimize additional wear in the bore because the lifters will be oiling more of the bore.

[modok]

Putting a little slot in the lifters is probably OK, tho I don't like it in principle.

Usually the oil to the top end has to be restricted in one way or another, and there are two main ways to do it.

One is to use a FIXED restriction, a "small hole"
The other way is to have a much larger oil passage, that "lines up' only a small % of the time.

Historically the timed restriction is better because it cannot plug up.

However in modern engines many DO use a fixed restriction and it works OK most of the time, but even today OEMs have hte same old problem. Just one spec of dirt the right size....and it's all over.

Of course cutting little groove you are making kind of a half of each "hybrid system" So it's fine.
But then again you might gain a lot more focusing on other areas.
Such as the oil feed TO the lifters, and what the oil does at the rocker, BOTH can be greatly improved IMO.
Adding the extra hoover oil passage, grooving the lifter bores so the lifters don't need a second groove to line up, modifying the rockers, ADDS oil flow also.
You can trace the path of flow, and see that the oil has to flow around some of the the intake lifters to get to some of the exhaust lifters, and so only a FEW of them need a groove. You don't HAVE to do that but with the right tools it's so easy, why on earth not?

And along the same lines for instance, CB sells grooved rocker shafts.....does the groove line up with the oil holes in the rocker? you tell me.
I don't LIKE the concept of grooved rocker shafts either, but if you are going to run them then lets slot the inside of the rockers so the oil passages actually line up with the groove.
Just an example, I don't remember what rockers you are using!

[67 Sunroof]

[modok]

Oops I said lifter instead of rocker.... "does the rocker shaft groove line with the oil holes in the rocker".

The groove in the rocker shaft....that just has to do with wasting oil flow.
Lets say your rockers have .004" clearance, rather loose....but that's ok, because it's a rocker, the force is only on the one side.
So you don't need to oil the other side. Oiling the other side just wastes oil.
Putting the oil feed IN the loaded area has the advantage that as it wears, it does not start losing oil pressure as clearance increases, BUT, putting the oil feed IN the loaded area of the bearing also means you've reduced the bearing area.
it's not a big deal, I just have particular ideas on it because I've seen just about every way to do it and on my END of things.....basically the mortician. LOL
It looks like putting the oil feed NEXT to the loaded area of the bearing, right at the edge of it, has proven to be THE superior design, for cam bearings, rockers, and pin bushings.
Which is maybe why the rockers outlast the engine, and the cam bearings don't
Is it necessary for the rockers to outlast the engine? no, of course, but don't fix what ain't broke. Build ON it.

It's nice to port the windows but it's probably not needed with a stock stroke.

[nsracing]

nice going on the project. My advice is just get the mock assembly done first. Dont build this motor like majority of motors get built—-closing the shortblock before everything is fittted.

Do the mock assembly all the way. ..rocker geometry and endplay, so on. When everything is good, take the assembly apart and final wash/ drying, and then final assembly. the final assembly will go very smooth. You can concentrate on just the assembly as you have already finished the dirty work. It will be a much better engine that way.

im in a generous mood the next few months..if you bring me the rotating assembly, i will verify the dynamic balance for you. (on the house.) i will probably have the hot jetwasher on that day so bring the case and anything else you want washed. (also on the house).

i just went to the last Bugout here in VA —Richmond last Memorial day. I made out like a bandit so im happy this week.

[nsracing]

also...i will only use Silverlines if i cannot get Kolbenscmids or Mahles..in that order.

[67 Sunroof]

I love theory. I love physics. I love learning about how things work and making them even better.
I don’t want to reinvent the wheel and I’m not a really smart guy to be honest. I am very good at understanding “how things work”. I’m not book smart but I am street smart.
With that out of the way, I have always been fascinated at Modok’s approach to a problem. He is a wealth of information and when he speaks I listen. No charge for the ego boost! Hahaha.
So how would one go about getting the excess oil from the rockers back to the cam bearings? You have a good point of seeing the aftermath of motors and why this happened and why that happened. I plan on running maybe 9:1 compression with efficient, small valve heads without a step in the heads. Haven’t purchased the heads or intake manifolds yet because I wanted them port matched when the time comes.

And NS...
I read a post about how you use squirters to squirt oil to help bring down the temps in the case. Would you care to elaborate or want me to shoot you a pm? After all, that 45 minute conversation on the phone with you months ago was what made me ultimately decide to do a 1776!! I appreciate your time very much. I’ll tell you what. I just might pack up my shit and pay you a visit man. You’ve got a pm.👌

[modok]

I probably should not have you chasing STRANGE ideas, on oiling mods, but it might give some proper perspective.
There is some wasted power pumping oil, and while there isn't a lot to gain, done right there is no downside.

Burt what is actually important?

Low pressure at idle is almost always...
Lifter bores loose, oil pump end play loose, or oil pressure plungers loose.
if those things are good, you will have plenty of oil pressure at idle, even with 26mm or smaller oil pump.

And the most important clearance is the rod bearings....which should be .002"-.003" "average" clearance IMO.
The oil thrown off the rod bearings also cools the pistons, and this kind of engine has a lot of crank flex, so it does not pay to be too tight on the rod bearings.
OR, if your rod bearings ARE tight, you HAVE to use low viscosity oil. 20-50 will not flow adequately through TIGHT rod bearings.
I don't like saying that, but that's how ti looks to me.

[67 Sunroof]

What do you mean by “this kind of engine has crank flex”?
Do you mean a 1776 or a boxer-type motor?
And your strange ideas are not strange. They are just that-ideas.
It takes a person who thinks outside of the box to approach a problem with a different perspective.
I’m planning on running 10w30 Brad Penn green oil.

[modok]

Just a VW boxer in general. 3 main bearings. the crank flexes a lot, and so using excessively tight cldarances can get you in trouble.

The Germans liked to make a lot of the clearances tight, but, sometimes they were too tight.
As compared as what it says in the official manual, rod bearings, pin bushings, and the cam gear it isn't necessary to make it "German tight", just fine to be on the high side of the OE specs.

Rebuilding old German engines, the lifters and rockers are usually too loose, but you can't do much about it, new cases i do not know.

[nsracing]

M odok— stop confusing this guy. He has a lot on his plate a,ready.

The Germans know how to build cars. Their clearances specs are fine. What you talking about too tight?

I am machining things tomorrow and some balance work. A Super Match M14 rifle is also on the work order, along with cleaning in the garage and some yard work. So Salisbury man...let me know if you are coming tomorrow. Maybe i will just have you buy us lunch.

[modok]

VW's MIN spec for rod bearing clearance is .0008"
Cross that out and put in .002", the bearings have virtually no eccentricity.

Read the first part of the clevite catalog, it's all true, that's how bearings work in the US of A
You tell me what part of it is wrong I'm interested to know.

[nsracing]

All imports run very tight specs anymore — new cars are machined much tighter on specs compared to before. That is why you can run 5w-30 oils or very light ouls in general. Engines now are much better machined. You know any new car running straight 30w oil?

My 92 Toyot Truck takes different rod bearings journal to journal. Why do you think that is? Toyota told me it has been standard practice to match bearings to journals certain tight tolerance —-that is why they can go that many miles without failure. It is not unusual to find an import car with high miles still runn8ng on same bearings from factory..passed 250,000 miles. The only American vehicles that can go that many miles are the diesel trucks.

My point is—- the Germans knew what they were doing. And the rest of the industry are finally catching on.