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67 Sunroof Engine Build
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Iím all for it. If you could snap a few pictures to give us new guys some direction it would help greatly.
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 7:07 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I don't remember, but have you measured and dialed in your deck height yet?

Once your deck height is .040-.045" you can order your heads, and have them cut to get the compression right where you want it.
Once the heads show up, pull the valve springs off the #1 cylinder and install some light checking springs. Now you can start your rocker geometery.

I don't know of any good articles. I will be doing rocker geometery on an engine here in the next couple weeks. I might have to take a bunch of pics and just do a write up on it. I have a real simple method using an angle finder on your phone.

Brian
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Good eye! Iím pretty sure it is flat because as I was spreading the Curil everything was flat because I ran my fingernail over the edges.
Brian can you point me to a good article on setting up rocker geometry? Honestly I thought that was done once you bought your heads and measured comp ratio?
Duh...
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overdrive
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

What's up with this, Looks like a oil pressure leak to me.

Edit: Dam auto correct

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Last edited by overdrive on Sat Nov 30, 2019 9:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I always make sure to mock everything up 100% before any sealer goes on.
All the way out to the valve covers. Carb linkage, tin, header etc. Once everything is good, then tear it all down and final clean everything and assemble it for good in one shot.

Then all of your assembly lubes will stay where you want them, there is way less chance of crap getting into the engine, etc.

The final assembly always goes together very smooth since you know everything fits together. No surprises to work around.

This is even more important on strokers where the case can't be 100% checked for clearance till the cylinders are on and torqued down.

Brian
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Oops.
Thereís my newbie mistake I guess. I thought I needed the case/bottom end tied up before measuring for heads and comp ratio?
So I shouldíve put it together but without sealant? I guess thatís not detrimental and can be undone.
I havenít purchased the heads yet-thought that was one of the last things to buy.?
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Brian_e
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

You sealed the case up without doing any of your rocker geometry, or cylinder head fitting?

Whats going to happen to your cam break-in lube when you need to turn the engine over 40-50+ times while doing the rocker geometry?

Brian
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Chugging along with my build! (Thanks to you guys)
Measured the endplay and determined my shim stack. Installed the crank, cam, and sealed the case up with Curil K2, Torqued down the 6 mains to 25ft/lbs and smaller nuts to 15ft/lbs.
This is the stage I am at now:

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I torqued the gland nut to 320ft/lbs.
Whatís next? Oil pump install, install head studs and fitting cylinders?
And whatís Dirko used for? (I have both)
Any suggestions/help would be greatly appreciated.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Ok, I received the new main bearings and they fit! Yeah!
I also (based on others recommendations) purchased new cam bearings. They havenít had much luck with the Silverline ones.
I notched the mains last night and installed the Mahle cam bearings. They felt ďbeefierĒ. Not sure why.
I DID have to sand the thrust a tiny bit. Cam spins free and I have clearance in the thrust now.
So whatís next? I guess putting the timing gear and bearings on the crank and then putting rods on the crank.
Anyone have a good thread on installing rod bearings?
I have the CB H beam rods with ARP bolts and need to torque them down and check for stretch and whatnot....
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

The case was bored .020.
111-198-475T is on the box.
M1-4904TP 020 (probably .020)?
I realized Iím gonna have to sand some more off of the cam bearings to allow for expansion. The cam gear is aluminum and the bearings are steel. I believe I need .004-.005 clearance?

Also,
Potential mistake! Putting the cam gear on...dot goes up top and the last lobe must point down. Gotta check on that one. That would suck for sure.
Whew! Got lucky! Iím good.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

What does the bearing box size say?

What size is the crank?

What size is the case bored out to?
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Ok, got to get out in the garage for a few hours today. Hot as hell though....
I was unable to get the cam to turn by playing wack-a-mole on the sides of the cam so I had to sand the faces of the bearings down a tad.
I got some wet/dry and a piece of glass and gave each bearing 10 free rides on the bumpy stuff. Cleaned them up and put them back in the case. Torqued the case down and guess what?
It still didnít turn!
Just kidding.
It turned freely but has like very little endplay? It spins fine though!?
I think too much endplay on a cam will give erratic timing is that correct?
So, getting all excited I put the cam bearings back in the box and decided to check out the oil pump. Itís a cb maxi 5. I wanted to see how well the hole lined up with the hole in the case. I had read where the hole sometimes didnít line up with the oil pump so I pushed it in.
Uh oh...

BEFORE:
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AFTER:
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To get it cleaned up I wound up taking my dental pick and running it down inside the hole. I could feel a lip at both ends. I scribed a line and pulled the pump out.
I took my Dremel and a carbide bit and opened it up to match the case. I then opened the case hole up to blend with the pump hole. (Iím deadly with a Dremel I swear!!)
Slid the pump back into the case and it turned out pretty damn good. I then took Clatterís advice from his thread (scotch brite on a wooden dowel with a slit in it) and cleaned up the pump hole and the case hole.
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Since I was on a roll. I put the cam back in with the cam gear and wanted to see if the oil pump bottomed out in the slotted end of the cam. I had read a few things about the cam gear BOLTS hitting the oil pump case sometimes and the drive gear of the oil pump bottoming out in the slotted part of the cam.
Anyway.........
I had no issues with the cam gears hitting-not even close. When do people have issues with them hitting?
And the drive gear sits fine in the cam without bottoming out. Yeahhhhhh!
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I put the gears back in the pump and ran the face over more wet/dry and a piece of glass to get it super flat.
I took the pump and cleaned it up really well with hot water and dishwashing detergent. Dried it and put into a ziplock bag.


Ok, I dug the crank out and decided to double check my main bearings.
Ok here is where things start to go weird.
I laid the bearings in their journals and they fit perfectly so I marked the dowel pin hole and the sides with a marker. I checked the dowel pins for looseness and they are good.
I had already notched the bearings for better oil flow and they all looked good.
I decided to test fit the thrust bearing? on the end of the crank and ..........
It doesnít fit.
In fact I tested all of my bearings and none of them fit.

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I chamfered the edges on the cam. Should I do more or is that enough? I also dropped the lifters in their bores and made sure each one fit. Once I had each one moving smooth as butter inscribed the bore and lifter to keep them in order and not mix them up. I also checked the clearance between the cam lobes and lifters. The cam is very mild so didnít have to worry about clearance issues there.

So thatís where I am. Stupid newbie 1st builder question.
Do people open up the bearing or turn down the crank journals?
Anyway, enough rambling for the night. Iím beat.
Any thoughts or helpful hints would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks!
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Yeah, Iíve been thinking about my choice.
Another well known member pmíed me and said 1776 is a great choice for what I want.
I have another full motor here to do a wild and crazy build IF I want to in the future.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

I'd just be looking and thinking about how the air moves under the pistons..

Adjacent pistons on the same side of the motor move opposite of one another.

The volume of oil/air underneath the piston has to either compress, or go somewhere else when the piston goes 'down'.
Because there is an adjacent piston next to the other on the same side going the opposite way.. The windows are there..

Unfortunately,
On the opposite side of the motor, one would hope that there was a piston going the opposite way.
I.E. #1 would see a rising piston at #3 cross the case from it when it was dropping,
But,
Alas,
The opposite side of the motor has a piston dropping as well,
And the windows are the only way to move the air under the pistons as they move..

So,
You basically just make sure that the flow from adjacent cylinders is as free/easy as possible.
You'll want to open up and smooth the windows, and any other places, as much as you can, without weakening the case.

Unlike porting a head, there's not the consideration of velocity at work.
You basically just want to hog it out as big as is practical and polish it up..


I'm glad you went with 1776.
You made a good choice.
Don't let anyone plant a seed of regret.. Wink
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Something else -

Try putting one of your cylinders into a hole to check what the bottom of the cylinder looks like in place.

Sometimes you can open up the window only so far before the bottom of the cylinder is blocking the flow anyways..


GOOD POINT MAN! My machinist left the lip so the sphigot? the cylinders slip in had a little more strength-I never thought of that. Any thoughts on this lip in the windows? Iíve seen them ground flat but it angles up like itís there for a ďreasonĒ?
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

This isnít a small stroker. Itís a 69mm crank.
1776 build. I want it cool running and get decent gas mileage with a little more pep.
I think Iím on the right track donít you? I just figured while I have the case opened up I may as well clean things up while I am in there.
I think the dellorto drla 40ís might be overkill though for such a small motor.

AND...
I already paid for cb to balance the whole assembly...(crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, clutch,etc...
If I went bigger at this point I would have to send it all back to rebalance again.
Sad
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Something else -

Try putting one of your cylinders into a hole to check what the bottom of the cylinder looks like in place.

Sometimes you can open up the window only so far before the bottom of the cylinder is blocking the flow anyways..
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Just because someone else would have built a stroker doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for your first build.

Additionally,
Small strokers like 74 are a waste of time IMHO.
Back in the day, when 'B' pistons were developed,
It was all engineered around an 82 crank and stock length rods.

If you are going to go through the whole deal of buying a stroker crank,
And good rods to match,
and clearance the case,
and doing cylinder trimming or shims,
Plus pushrod trimming, and all of the other stuff that goes along with it,
You're better off going big.

Might as well go 82 if you're building one,
Or,
better yet, go Chevy journals and 84 or 86.
And that leads to all kinds of other things...

Keeping the build simple is priority #1 for your first build.
You want success.

What a 74 crank would get you is a bit more power lower in the rev range,
But if the rest of the build was otherwise the same,
it wouldn't make much more overall power.

I believe in keeping the meat in the crank cheeks,
and long skirts on the pistons for longevity.

What you are building will be mild for driving around town,
and make some beans when you want by spinning it.

So,
don't feel like you're doing anything wrong here.
Small stroker cranks are just the current fad on the Samba.
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67 Sunroof
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

Just did. I sat reallllly still on the ground and cradled it like a baby. Haha
Turned out good. Got to go to work.
I used some scotch brite red in the lifter bores and they are great now without any wobbling
So far so good!
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: 67 Sunroof Engine Build Reply with quote

The CB cam I got was very sharp at the lobes. deburr for sure. I used a Dremel tool with a stone to knock down the edge all the way around.
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