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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:52 pm Post subject: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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Hi. I have been reviving this 84 1.9WBX manual. About 109k on the clock. There are some running issues. Cooling system needs some work etc.
Today i noticed the slight coolant leak from one of the bolts. Its the one near the thermostat next to the spark plug on the driver side.
I figured, i may just apply a bit more torque and leak would stop. It did not. Then i decided to learn a bit more before i try something else and cause a major screw up.
Looking at the diagram on bentley page 15.22, it looks like number 5 stud.
It appears that it is normal for coolant to leak from there , if the nut is not sealed right. I am asking this because with my limited knowledge, i first thought its a sign for dooms day and there should be no coolant there but i guess studs are swimming in coolant so its normal.
Now, the solution....
I am thinking about removing the cap nut. For this, should i use regular bolt removing techniques, such as lots of lubrication, some heat perhaps?. The cap nut is moving but making sure if he decides to get stubborn.
After the removal of the cap nut(if i can succesfully do it) how can we achieve secure sealing? It appears that we need a sealing compound. Is it something i can buy off the shelf from auto stores like autozone and such or is it something needs to ordered via internet?
If all that sounds good, i would put my digital torque wrench in action and torque to the specs and hope that the leak would stop. What do you guys/gals think?
Also, i have read that it is a common spot to have a crack. It looks like there is no crack but i ll further investigate(probably i need to get one of those telescopic mirror tool). Once the cap nut is removed i should be clearly see it if there is any crack developed. |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2796 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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This is my opinion only.
The head nut leaking is not necessarily a simple remove apply sealant bolt down situation. Furthermore it is likely indicative of other stuff needing refreshing and you said you’re in the middle of renewing the van- meaning I assume you don’t need it for travel soon.
I’d go ahead and pull the motor, buy the reinz gasket kit, pull the heads and do a “basic” reseal. It’s not that hard or expensive,you’ll learn what literally everything thing is and where it goes, and it’ll be done.
Also you have to use an old school beam style torque wrench on the head nuts. You have to be able to lean into the sealant/ head stud flex combo (that’s how I describe it read up more if you want more explanation). _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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MarkWard Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005 Posts: 17153 Location: Retired South Florida
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:21 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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I worked for VW when Vanagons were new. Under warranty we were seeing leaking head nuts. The factory fix was to remove one at a time, clean the cap nut and the sealing surface on the head, and reinstall to proper torque. VW supplied their sealer.
So you are on the right track. I don’t know that you could find a sealer at the local auto parts place. VW, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have some really good sealers, that should work. _________________ ☮️ |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2796 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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Would the Right Stuff work as a sealant in this application? That'd be available from a FLAPS.
That's good to know that was the factory fix, Mark- thanks as always for sharing your experience.
OP, doing it this way will most likely fix this leak, agreed- my suggestion is an "ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure" kind of thing. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL 2.1 AT Westfauxlia. "Frankie" Totaled https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=764510&highlight=carnage
1995 Eurovan Camper "Marzivan"
2020 GTI SE manual |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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mikemtnbike wrote: |
This is my opinion only.
The head nut leaking is not necessarily a simple remove apply sealant bolt down situation. Furthermore it is likely indicative of other stuff needing refreshing and you said you’re in the middle of renewing the van- meaning I assume you don’t need it for travel soon.
I’d go ahead and pull the motor, buy the reinz gasket kit, pull the heads and do a “basic” reseal. It’s not that hard or expensive,you’ll learn what literally everything thing is and where it goes, and it’ll be done.
Also you have to use an old school beam style torque wrench on the head nuts. You have to be able to lean into the sealant/ head stud flex combo (that’s how I describe it read up more if you want more explanation). |
Thanks. I was mentally past the stage of being in the middle of renewing the van. I guess you never out of it when you deal with a 30+ years old vehicle. I just started to drive around, usually doing small distances, running errands . I am still trying to understand, get the know the engine. As i said earlier there are some issues and i am making slow progress due to the fact that i don't know much and i don't want to take it to a pro mechanic and drop big chunk of dough and miss on the learning experiences.
Your route is probably the best since there are some stuff going on in that engine. It might be the best to remove the heads, inspect. Honestly, i might even have a blown head gasket. I just can't pinpoint what problem i am having relates to what. Its still like a puzzle to me. I am a bit short on time cause i have a sailboat with a diesel engine that i am doing work on it too.
At this point i think its best for me to go to the easy way and try to reseal it keep observing what is going on, and try to cure things. |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I worked for VW when Vanagons were new. Under warranty we were seeing leaking head nuts. The factory fix was to remove one at a time, clean the cap nut and the sealing surface on the head, and reinstall to proper torque. VW supplied their sealer.
So you are on the right track. I don’t know that you could find a sealer at the local auto parts place. VW, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have some really good sealers, that should work. |
Thanks , i have ringed the local vw dealers parts dept. The sealant being mentioned at bentley is NLA. He had no other suggestions.
I also have checket ti right stuff made by permatex. Very promising mambo jambo on the web site. One of the earlier topic on samba shows that Ben's place been using the right stuff on the cap nuts. Another thing to add is that even if that vw magic sealant was available, it is about $80 for a small tube???
I am not sure if i should try some other dealers like honda, toyota or just go with the right stuff. |
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mikemtnbike Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015 Posts: 2796 Location: North Carolina
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The Carrot Samba Member
Joined: November 18, 2013 Posts: 173 Location: Ontario, Canada
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:05 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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I used right stuff when I did the head reseal on my motor. The sealing surfaces of the Nuts were flattened on a knife sharpening stone. No leaks so far.
This sealing junction amazes me, it seems like it should need more than just a thin film of sealing compound to do the job. I wondered about adding extra sealant around the threads of the head stud where it passes through the head to create more of a plug below the base of the nut. In the end I followed factory procedure and as mentioned, no leaks so far.
If I did this again, I would be tempted to use a sealant with more “open time” than the right stuff because torquing the head Nuts takes a bit of time and I worried about the sealant hardening while torquing. _________________ 1990 Orly Blue Carat |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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I bought the victor reinz product. I have to wait for it to be shipped. |
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Igeo Samba Member
Joined: September 25, 2018 Posts: 888 Location: Oakland, CA
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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Thanks. Looking good. |
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jlrftype7 Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018 Posts: 3582 Location: Chicago
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Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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MarkWard wrote: |
I worked for VW when Vanagons were new. Under warranty we were seeing leaking head nuts. The factory fix was to remove one at a time, clean the cap nut and the sealing surface on the head, and reinstall to proper torque. VW supplied their sealer.
So you are on the right track. I don’t know that you could find a sealer at the local auto parts place. VW, Honda, Toyota, and Nissan have some really good sealers, that should work. |
This is reminiscent of BMW having us renew head bolts on the M20 engine, one at a time due to them snapping. They were replaced by Torque to Yield bolts. _________________ '68 Westy- my first VW and vehicle/Bus- long gone.- sold it to a traveling Swiss couple....
'67 Type 3 Fastback, my 2nd car- gone
'69 Semi-Auto Stick Shift Beetle-gone
2017 MINI Coopers, our current DDs
‘84 Tin Top - Hilga....Auto
Last edited by jlrftype7 on Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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westina wrote: |
mikemtnbike wrote: |
This is my opinion only.
The head nut leaking is not necessarily a simple remove apply sealant bolt down situation. Furthermore it is likely indicative of other stuff needing refreshing and you said you’re in the middle of renewing the van- meaning I assume you don’t need it for travel soon.
I’d go ahead and pull the motor, buy the reinz gasket kit, pull the heads and do a “basic” reseal. It’s not that hard or expensive,you’ll learn what literally everything thing is and where it goes, and it’ll be done.
Also you have to use an old school beam style torque wrench on the head nuts. You have to be able to lean into the sealant/ head stud flex combo (that’s how I describe it read up more if you want more explanation). |
Thanks. I was mentally past the stage of being in the middle of renewing the van. I guess you never out of it when you deal with a 30+ years old vehicle. I just started to drive around, usually doing small distances, running errands . I am still trying to understand, get the know the engine. As i said earlier there are some issues and i am making slow progress due to the fact that i don't know much and i don't want to take it to a pro mechanic and drop big chunk of dough and miss on the learning experiences.
Your route is probably the best since there are some stuff going on in that engine. It might be the best to remove the heads, inspect. Honestly, i might even have a blown head gasket. I just can't pinpoint what problem i am having relates to what. Its still like a puzzle to me. I am a bit short on time cause i have a sailboat with a diesel engine that i am doing work on it too.
At this point i think its best for me to go to the easy way and try to reseal it keep observing what is going on, and try to cure things. |
God help you, a Vanagon And a sailboat
You can pour money into holes on land and sea
I have 8 boats in various stages of repair. Ontario, Cape Cod, Hudson _________________ .ssS! |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4791 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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i've been dissatisfied with the yellow Reinz goo that comes with the gaskets... when i've gone back into heads i used it on, it was dried and breaks off in chunks, tho the nuts were not leaking.
i've gone to using Curil T. it is a green goo that remains plastic, absorbing thermal expansion and contractions without cracking or tearing. my head nut drill is to true the bottom surface of the nut using fine wet sandpaper on a flat granite slab, lube the stud threads with moly anti-seize, and use the Curil T.
Ben has great success with The Right Stuff, which is an RTV compound that will cure to a resilient but non-plastic state. i don't believe this as closely matches the design intent of the yellow goo but it works very successfully so it can't be argued it is wrong.
i like to do another re-torque on a new head several hours after the head is initially torqued. seems the nuts are quite loose after things rest/compress a while. in theory, the Curil T would withstand this retorque better that an RTV but only the outer skin of RTV would have cured in that time frame, and the sealing occurs under the nut so i think TRS can withstand a retorque if done within several hours. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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Abscate wrote: |
westina wrote: |
mikemtnbike wrote: |
This is my opinion only.
The head nut leaking is not necessarily a simple remove apply sealant bolt down situation. Furthermore it is likely indicative of other stuff needing refreshing and you said you’re in the middle of renewing the van- meaning I assume you don’t need it for travel soon.
I’d go ahead and pull the motor, buy the reinz gasket kit, pull the heads and do a “basic” reseal. It’s not that hard or expensive,you’ll learn what literally everything thing is and where it goes, and it’ll be done.
Also you have to use an old school beam style torque wrench on the head nuts. You have to be able to lean into the sealant/ head stud flex combo (that’s how I describe it read up more if you want more explanation). |
Thanks. I was mentally past the stage of being in the middle of renewing the van. I guess you never out of it when you deal with a 30+ years old vehicle. I just started to drive around, usually doing small distances, running errands . I am still trying to understand, get the know the engine. As i said earlier there are some issues and i am making slow progress due to the fact that i don't know much and i don't want to take it to a pro mechanic and drop big chunk of dough and miss on the learning experiences.
Your route is probably the best since there are some stuff going on in that engine. It might be the best to remove the heads, inspect. Honestly, i might even have a blown head gasket. I just can't pinpoint what problem i am having relates to what. Its still like a puzzle to me. I am a bit short on time cause i have a sailboat with a diesel engine that i am doing work on it too.
At this point i think its best for me to go to the easy way and try to reseal it keep observing what is going on, and try to cure things. |
God help you, a Vanagon And a sailboat
You can pour money into holes on land and sea
I have 8 boats in various stages of repair. Ontario, Cape Cod, Hudson |
8 boat is just insane. I barely handle a small 27 footer. A best return i have from a toy is motorcycle. Change oil once a year, start and go. 40+K miles with very basic effort, never stranded anywhere. |
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westina Samba Member
Joined: October 01, 2017 Posts: 368 Location: Beacon/NY
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Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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DanHoug wrote: |
i've been dissatisfied with the yellow Reinz goo that comes with the gaskets... when i've gone back into heads i used it on, it was dried and breaks off in chunks, tho the nuts were not leaking.
i've gone to using Curil T. it is a green goo that remains plastic, absorbing thermal expansion and contractions without cracking or tearing. my head nut drill is to true the bottom surface of the nut using fine wet sandpaper on a flat granite slab, lube the stud threads with moly anti-seize, and use the Curil T.
Ben has great success with The Right Stuff, which is an RTV compound that will cure to a resilient but non-plastic state. i don't believe this as closely matches the design intent of the yellow goo but it works very successfully so it can't be argued it is wrong.
i like to do another re-torque on a new head several hours after the head is initially torqued. seems the nuts are quite loose after things rest/compress a while. in theory, the Curil T would withstand this retorque better that an RTV but only the outer skin of RTV would have cured in that time frame, and the sealing occurs under the nut so i think TRS can withstand a retorque if done within several hours. |
Thanks. I have noticed the Curil T as well. If reinz fails, i would try it. Is the complete draining of the coolant necessary or possible to get away with draining just enough to let the head nut area to be dry and clean for better result? |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4791 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Coolant leaking from head bolt. |
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the nut land must be dry, otherwise the sealant doesn't 'smear' properly leaving gaps. so only drain down until the seepage stops and then wipe it dry. a clever person might apply slight vacuum to the system to keep the air flowing into the block from around the stud, maybe enough to dry and install. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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