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scotto Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: UNITED STATES
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:05 pm Post subject: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Well folks, the brake system is killing me on my 73 beetle. There’s many factors going into this. My floor replace the wasn’t the best. Because of this my pedal stop bracket was too short so I had the machine shop at my work make me a slightly longer one. Next, since I had the body off, I replaced every line and brake component, including the master cylinder as well as the entire pedal assembly. Did a bleed on the system, first with vac at the cylinders, but it was hard to tell if air was entering my hose at the bleeder, so I used a reverse bleeder at the M/C. With the reverse bleeder, I tested the system with pressure for 10 mins and it held. I bled the system again, no air. I have all the brakes set so they are dragging when free turned. Still, I have no pedal pressure. I have a new push rod installed and bottoming it out, still no pressure. Any ideas? |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12466
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:48 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Just an idea but I’ve used the Bentley manual and more specifically the two person method to bleed, followed to the letter works every time.
Vacuum bleeders sometimes leak around threads. Years ago Bob Hoover advocated the VW recommended way because he said cups inside the cylinders were chevron seals and to go the other way induced tiny bubbles. Only Don Ho likes that
I don’t know anymore, but Hagerty recently sent me an email discussing five different ways to bleed brakes. They all seemed plausible to me.
Speed bleeders on each wheel cylinder have been known to work too. The easiest way is also the cheapest way and requires no special equipment, I get my wife to help me as I do the shuffle under the car. |
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scotto Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: UNITED STATES
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Thanks for the reply. I’ll try the two person method again, but not having the slightest pressure at the pedal after power bleeding with no air bubbles concerns me. I even bench bled the master... even replaced the master with a higher quality part...... very frustrating! |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51117 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Savage as it sounds I've had good results just putting a hose onto a bleeder (into a jug of used fluid), opening it 1/2 turn and getting in and pumping the pedal slowishly 7-10 times before checking the reservoir, repeat for each wheel. No fancy tools, valves or assistants required
Don't let the reservoir go dry and pump in full slow strokes so you don't add little bubbles to the system. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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mukluk Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012 Posts: 7020 Location: Clyde, TX
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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busdaddy wrote: |
Savage as it sounds I've had good results just putting a hose onto a bleeder (into a jug of used fluid), opening it 1/2 turn and getting in and pumping the pedal slowishly 7-10 times before checking the reservoir, repeat for each wheel. No fancy tools, valves or assistants required
Don't let the reservoir go dry and pump in full slow strokes so you don't add little bubbles to the system. |
I've been using this same method for many years with good results. The only deviation I'll make is if I've replaced lines or a master cylinder, in which case I top up the reservoir and open the bleeder then wait for fluid to start dribbling out before proceeding with the hose in a jug method. _________________ 1960 Ragtop w/Semaphores "Inga" |
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Chris333 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2017 Posts: 656 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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You are supposed to bleed the brakes with the adjusters all the way out so the drums can't spin. |
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scotto Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: UNITED STATES
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:16 am Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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I’ll try adjusting the brakes and pumping again. I would have thought the mighty vac would have at least provided some resistance after bleeding |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003 Posts: 4863 Location: Harmony, PA
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:15 am Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Chris333 wrote: |
You are supposed to bleed the brakes with the adjusters all the way out so the drums can't spin. |
While I’ve never had the adjuster at full lock, they at least need to be properly adjusted. WAY too many people adjust the shoes till the just start to drag not realizing that simply moved the shoe to a different position, and may only be 25% through the process. The shoes need adjusted EQUALLY till the drum is locked, then backed off for the slight drag. Bleeding with the shoes locked would work. The other big issue is having the right adjuster for the shoe in the right orientation. A 73 would have the wide angle slotted adjusters that should have the thin portion of the adjuster at the top, and the thick part at the bottom.
Also check your pushrod/pedal free play. Sticks in my mind the free play at the pushrod is only about 1mm. This should have your pedal moving 1/2 to an inch out at the foot pad. Make sure you can wiggle the pushrod with your fingers at full rest to make sure it’s releasing the piston pressure in the master. |
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Chris333 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2017 Posts: 656 Location: Ohio
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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I had my body off with all new everything brakes and had the drums adjusted till there was no drag and I couldn't get the pedal to feel right. Someone here told me to adjust the pads all the way out for bleeding. I did that and after bleeding adjusted them back to drag free. Now my brakes worked. |
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VW_Jimbo Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016 Posts: 9948 Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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scotto wrote: |
Well folks, the brake system is killing me on my 73 beetle. There’s many factors going into this. My floor replace the wasn’t the best. Because of this my pedal stop bracket was too short so I had the machine shop at my work make me a slightly longer one. |
I am a stickler for making sure all components within the brake system are correctly installed BEFORE moving to the next step. This item seems to have been lost during the process. If I were in your position, I would spend my time understanding why this is not functioning as designed. I think your solution will reveal itself during this process. Something right here has been overlooked. _________________ Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
TDCTDI wrote: |
Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51117 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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[email protected] wrote: |
Chris333 wrote: |
You are supposed to bleed the brakes with the adjusters all the way out so the drums can't spin. |
While I’ve never had the adjuster at full lock, they at least need to be properly adjusted. WAY too many people adjust the shoes till the just start to drag not realizing that simply moved the shoe to a different position, and may only be 25% through the process. The shoes need adjusted EQUALLY till the drum is locked, then backed off for the slight drag. Bleeding with the shoes locked would work. The other big issue is having the right adjuster for the shoe in the right orientation. A 73 would have the wide angle slotted adjusters that should have the thin portion of the adjuster at the top, and the thick part at the bottom.
Also check your pushrod/pedal free play. Sticks in my mind the free play at the pushrod is only about 1mm. This should have your pedal moving 1/2 to an inch out at the foot pad. Make sure you can wiggle the pushrod with your fingers at full rest to make sure it’s releasing the piston pressure in the master. |
Excellent advice, I'll add that I bottom out both adjusters and then screw them out equal clicks until you can't turn the adjuster any more (way past where the wheel locks up), then back them off equal clicks until the wheel turns. Doing that seats all the shoes and components on the first try. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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scotto Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2018 Posts: 13 Location: UNITED STATES
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Thanks guys. I locked the wheels and bled again. I think I’ll take the drums off and have somebody come look at them as a precaution. Also, my push rod seems way to far from the piston. I’m wondering if I boogered up the stop plate position when I put in the new floor. |
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Tim Donahoe Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2012 Posts: 11740 Location: Redding, CA
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Posted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Hack-o-Rama vs brakes |
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Your pushrod should only have 1/4 inch of freeplay at the top of the pedal, before encountering the touch of resistance. This is done by hand only. Your foot won’t feel this resistance because it’s very subtle (this is the feel of the pushrod tip encountering the back of the mc piston).
1/2 to 1 inch is way too much. 1/4 inch at the top of the pedal gives you the 1mm clearance inside the mc.
Tim _________________ Let's do the Time Warp again!
Richard O'Brien |
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