Calling ashman-- more starter issues

[sb001]

I'm back to amend something I posted about needing a new starter over in the Duralast from Autozone thread-

I no longer think the problem was the starter itself.
Why do I say that? Because the new Duralast starter I just installed a few weeks ago now won't turn over either.

I say this with full knowledge that some on here will post the popcorn munchie emoticon as though they knew this would happen from me buying a Duralast starter.
However, I know more about electrics on these cars than anyone except one other person on this site. The explanation is not a crappy starter from autozone that only lasted 3 weeks. It's SOMETHING ELSE. My only mistake (and regret) is that I probably never needed another starter.

So the question becomes-- why did this starter fire the car right up after I installed it, work for 3 weeks, then suddenly show the exact same symptom as the original one I removed?
Here is an important clue for the TOP electrical expert on here to diagnose and help me resolve this: Both times this has happened, when I first turned the key the starter turned the engine over but it would not start. Whether this is starter related (as in the starter not turning the engine fast enough, solenoid not being supplied enough power etc.) or something else, I don't know. But both times, after several seconds of turning the engine but not starting the car, I released the key, turned to OFF, then tried again and that's when I got absolutely nothing except the "CLICK" from the hard start relay I have in back.
Yes I have tried the under the seat trick of connecting the battery directly to the starter wire, both times, and same result-- I get nothing from the starter.
Battery tests absolutely fine.
I have pondered over this for the last few hours and can only come up with a couple of somewhat reasonable explanations:

1. I burned the solenoid out on both starters letting it spin for much longer than normal while trying to start the engine (which would mean of course that I have another issue elsewhere and the starter was a casualty.) However I readily doubt this as there have been a million times over the last 4 decades we let the starter spin abnormally long trying to start a problematic engine, and it never burned out the starter.

2. A short or wear in either the starter wire from the back seat to the starter or the cable from the + battery terminal to the starter, possibly was able to complete the circuit to the starter again when the new starter was installed but is now back in a position to cause a short or not allow proper current through. Again though, doubtful since the key symptom here seems to be that each starter still spun the engine for several seconds without the engine starting, and then immediately on the second attempt the starters would no longer spin.

3. Transmission ground strap connection is bad? (Have not checked that yet.) This makes the most sense to me.

These are really the only somewhat logical explanations I can come up with why installing a new starter fixed the problem but only temporarily, then the exact same symptom repeated itself. Remember both times the starter failed, I tried the under the seat trick, thereby eliminating ANYTHING in the electrical path besides the battery, starter, and in between wiring.

There are other possibilities that crossed my mind, such as my neutral safety switch not working, but the fact that both starters initially spun before being shut off and tried again when they failed to do anything would seem to rule this out.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[sb001]

P.S. Ashman, if YOU say the only logical explanation here is a bad starter, I'll acquiesce and people can have their field day.
But knowing generally how electrics in cars work, I just cannot accept that explanation until everything else has been ruled out.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[bluebus86]

number three seems to be logical thing to check, you havent checked it yet, check is simple, so Id do that. do a voltage drop test across the strap, test points should be tranny case to the chassis, test while attempting to crank the motor.
Then repeat test for drop between the tranny case, and the starter motor housing.

Good luck

Bug On!
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[Xevin]

Dang, I must be getting old. I thought the popcorn emoji meant one was following a thread as one would watch a movie. Meaning, sit back and watch how the situation gets worked out.
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Keep on Busin'

[sb001]

[sb001]

Anyway, crisis averted-

I hooked up a portable booster pack to my battery and turned the key and sure enough the starter spun right over and immediately started the car.

This would seem to suggest a weak battery- except only occasionally, as the starter has worked fine right up to this point-- like the starter before it it just picked a random time to suddenly not work due to a weak signal.

THAT would seem to suggest that the battery is not always being fully charged by the generator. (This may also explain the weird horn-not-working-then-suddenly-working-again syndrome I posted about a couple weeks ago.) But it may not be the generator-it may be the voltage regulator, which I would run some tests on but honestly this VR is so old (it's an old Echlin from Napa) I have been considering buying a newer solid state VR anyway, so I might as well go ahead and do that first and see what happens.
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[ashman40]

Your analysis was on point. Don't think you need me, but it is nice to be wanted.

The addition of the booster suggests that insufficient current is making it to either the starter or the solenoid.

I suggest the following tests which most you have already hinted at:

Since your booster suggests a weak battery... take it to your FLAPS and have them load test it. Ask if they can actually confirm the max CCA load it can support. The Beetle starter only needed around 450 CCA when new when the wiring flowed max current. With 40yr old wiring you want a surplus of CCA if possible.

Crawl under the car and short the starter solenoid terminals to test the starter itself. After placing the car in neutral and on jack stands...
- Using a large screwdriver or pliers, short the two threaded studs on the solenoid (expect sparks to fly). This energizes just the starter motor. It should run the starter but does NOT energize the solenoid to extend the Bendix drive. The starter motor should spin but NOT crank the engine. This confirms the current from the battery will drive the motor. If there is any problem getting the motor to spin you can suspect a bad starter.
- Using a screwdriver or short length of heavy gauge wire, short the small #50 terminal on the solenoid (red wire from ignition switch connects here) to the battery cable stud on the solenoid. This provides the #50 terminal direct access to (max) battery current. This should crank the engine. Test it multiple times. The engine should crank every time.

If the above tests pass, then your starter is good. You can now suspect your wiring.

You mentioned a HSR. Are you using a Bosch-style relay or the larger Ford/Mopar starter solenoid? I like to suggest the smaller Bosch relay because it requires very little current to energize.
Can you post of pic of your HSR wiring? What gauge wires are you using to connect the relay? For the Bosch relay, I would suggest a minimum of 14AWG wire for the #30 and #87 connections. Keep the lengths as short as possible. If you can use 8AWG or 10AWG wires that would be even better! These are the two wires that carry current from the battery to the starter solenoid #50 terminal. Using smaller gauge wire and you risk insufficient current making it to the starter solenoid. The starter solenoid draws around 10-15A of current to activate. You don't want to choke the current flow with smallish wires. The other wires on the HSR (#85, #86) only need to power the small coil inside the relay so can be VERY small wires (18AWG).


One last thing to check... your battery cables. Not only should you check your transmission ground cable, but also remove and inspect/clean your two battery cables. You need max contact between the terminals and the posts on your battery. The ID of the terminals should be smooth with no pits or scars. If they are lead, you can get a battery terminal tool that will re-shape the ID to match the posts. The same for the posts, they need to be smooth to provide max current flow to the terminals. All connections should be clean (wire brush). After you restore all the connections, you can coat them with grease or some spray to prevent moisture from seeping in over time.


The challenge with the starter is you cannot easily measure the current that is making it to the two starter connections. You can measure voltage, but proper voltage levels do not equate to sufficient current. All you can do is ensure clean paths and max contact area/ wire cross sectional area to allow max current flow.
If you have access to a clamp on amp meter you can clamp it over the #50 wire from the HSR to the solenoid. You should see 10-20A. If this value is low it could indicate a choke point in the current flow.
Also clamp to the battery cable itself. You should see 100A+ when the starter is cranking the engine. These numbers are from memory, I'd be interested in any readings you get.

If you do all of the above and you still have problems, pull the starter and take it to the FLAPS to test. At least you have a self-supporting autostick starter. It can be tested without a jig. You could even try testing the starter yourself OUTSIDE of the transmission using a known good battery and good (thick) battery jumper cables. Just be sure to secure the starter body. It creates a good deal of torque when it spins (have a buddy step on it to hold it in place).
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!}

[Cusser]

[bluebus86]

[heimlich]

If those duralast are lifetime warranty then stick with it. AutoZone's been around a while. You'll get your money's worth.
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[slalombuggy]

[calvinater]

thanks buggy, great info.
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"Albatross"!

[sb001]

[Tom K.]

No disrespect intended towards other Samba members, but Ashman's electrical posts are legendary. I just hope that, should I have an electrical problem at some point, he's still around. I hope you get it figured out, SB.
_________________
'91 Vanagon Westfalia
'70 Beetle Convertible
'71 Super Beetle Semi-Automatic: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714131&highlight=
'65 Ghia: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=762478&highlight=

[Cusser]

[bluebus86]

[ashman40]

[sb001]

[Meiang]

I got lost on the 1st post half way through on what should be a simple issue to solve.

[sb001]