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1.7L EA assessment
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2019 3:24 pm    Post subject: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

I am at the point in going through my car where I can look into what I can reuse vs. buy for my '73 412's engine. I am a type 4 novice so I really need some help from you guys on the forum determining what she needs. You guys name it and I can take a picture and/or measure it. My goal is to get stock power and be reliable enough for a weekly drive (after the front-end rebuild of course).

Here she is stripped of cooling tin:
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Engine background: The car's odometer listed 29k miles, which has likely flipped a few times. It was running well immediately before coming out although it smoked a little bit and might have been a little down on power. It also made a popping sound, but I think it may have been an exhaust leak. I did a compression test and all cylinders were fairly even and around 110 PSI.

What it is: The block is coded EA and the heads are coded 021 101 371Q with breather tubes on both heads and a cylinder head temp sensor on the left head. The left head's part number was all blurry for some reason, but the right one was really sharp. This all appears to be correct for my 412 as far as I know (Wilson air-cooled engine rebuilding book).

What appears to be wrong with it now that I have the engine off: It's really filthy and I think nearly every seal leaks. Here is the front main seal as an example:
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Next step past here? Thanks!

Dan
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Sorry...I meant to get to this earlier. Traveling for work

So.....with an EA series....depending on whether you believe all of the manuals.....it "should" have domed high compression pistons. Its stated compression pressure is 128 to 156 psi. Be sure you are testing warmed up, all spark plugs removed and the throttle blocked open.

Of all of that was done....then 110 is a little low....but being almost dead on for all 4 means its in great shape and just normal wear.

Alternately....I have seen more than a few EA series with dished lower compression pistons. They list a compression pressure of 100 to 135 psi. So 110 compression all around would put a dished piston engine at quite fair condition.

It could also be....at this age....and is most likely part of it....that all four head gaskets are leaking. They all leak. And if you remove them before they get a burn through....you just saved your heads.

The high compression 1.7L was absolutely the best snd longest lasting all around type 4 engine. The 1.8L is just as good....when its built with higher compression. This can be seen in the European twin carb 1.8 at about 86 hp. The domed piston 1.7 put out 82 hp.

So the easiest course of action is to do a good "refurbishment". It depends on you budget, tools and skills.....if it were me.....I would have the heads rebuilt with new seats and valves. Its just too old to trust original seats and valves.

The "Q" heads are the best. The 411, 412 and 914....well cared for ...were also the easiest on their heads.

You can go to one of the type 4 specific shops to just do heads....like Headflow masters or Mofoco.....or any decent head machine shop......but SPECIFY exactly what you want and be prepared to measure and check before you walk away. Buy the valves for them unless they advertize the same brand and part # you suggest. Go by the angles in the book.....and tell them new seats....blended on the inside.....with .006" interference fit.....and no flycutting unless you have a burned cylinder seat.

Buy your valves from Pelican parts or Automobile Atlanta....or Ac.net. Check the brand and size. Right now Pelican has TRW or Porsche. Good valves all around...in the right,sizes.

Camshaft......buy a new one. Do not risk the old one and lifters. You can get a web #73....which is a warmed up early 411 grind... or the 9590 from the type 4 store.....which is the same cam as the Web #73 with a little more overlap to run cooler.

Best money spent.....will be a complete camshaft KIT from the type 4 store. Cam, gear, lifyers, springs, retainers, Porsche swivel feet. Optionally with new studs and rocker shafts.

So before you disassemble....check the crank free play. If you get lucky.....when you CAREFULLY strip it down....you will most likely dind domed pistons. Check their skirts with a micrometer. They will probably,still be good. Measure ring grooves. Buy a good set of rimgs drom AC.net and a gasket kit. Set ring gaps...clean up....but a flexhone of about,240 grit and give the cylinders about 10 strokes. If they measure ok....and have no gouges or rust....you should be fine.

Also...you may find the main bearings ro be in good shape. If so.....clean yhem and reuse them. If not....its only about,another $65. We can talk then. We can tell you how to go through the oil pump.

Gist is....with these parts...you csn recurb to get another 70k excellent miles in the $2500 range or less. Ray
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Thanks Ray!

I will get on end-play before disassembly. As I understand it from the clymer I just have to get out the front seal (under the flex plate), reinstall the flex plate without the seal, and then rock it back and forth with a dial indicator attached to the case.

I took one head off yesterday to take it down to the local shop specializing in heads to get a quote. They quoted a good price but said they couldn't handle any oversize valve guides. From looking at AC.net it looks like I really should borrow a valve spring compressor, get in and measure anyway. Quite the range of sizes in guides available! I suppose that way I could at least test out all of the valves, springs, and guides to see what condition they are in.

By the way, these are the top of my pistons. domed pistons?

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The head also had those head gaskets you were talking about by the way.
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Took the engine off the stand to get the best measurement of endplay. I think I am right in the acceptable range, but it was my first time using a dial indicator. Is my technique OK? I was following the clymer manual's instructions for this.

- First, took off the front oil seal. This tore to shreds pretty easily.
- Second, took out one of the three shims. I measured that third shim with a set of mitutoyo calipers and it was 0.0135 inches.
- Third, bolted the flex plate back on and tightened it up.
- Fourth, mounted the base for the dial indicator, harbor freight version, to the C-ring engine mount adaptor, got it from pelicanparts.com. It was either mouth on this or mount on the flex plate. The flex plate didn't give the most secure mount. The engine mount adapter is firmly bolted to the case in several places so I used it.
- Finally I pulled and pushed on the fan mount on the back of the engine with a pair of screw drivers and a few taps from a mallet. After a few tweaks I started getting consistent measurements around .017 - .018 inches. Subtracting that third shim measurement gave me about .004 inches which is right in the middle of acceptable end play: .0028-.0051" (Clymer, p. 40).
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 21, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Important thing!.....go get your heads back!....NOW!

Whatever shop you took your heads to....there should not be a single thing they CANNOT do to your heads....or they are NOT qualified to be working on them at all.

Air cooled engine heads in general ....but type 4 heads VERY SPECIFICALLY.....cannot be properly done by a generic automotive shop UNLESS they have a LOT of experience ......WITH TYPE 4 HEADS. Type 1 experience helps but is not enough.

Experience with water cooled heads does not count. Useful....many things are similar....but not the same.

A couple of questions.....typically unless you special order.....most replacement valve guides for type 4 are the first oversize.

1. If this shop says they cannot install them.....then it appears they have no basic machine work capability. They are just planning .....I assume from that statement ....to press in stock original size guides....which would be risky for them to stay in at this many miles.....or to just "knurl" the ID of your guides and re-use them.....which SHOULD NOT BE DONE.

2. With normal guide wear.....you cannot put new seats and valves in with any reliability ...witjout replacing the guides.....with NEW GUIDES. New guides need to be first oversized to be sure they will not pull out of the head or start moving the first hot day.

New guides need to be used.....because the ID needs to be reamed to fit the new valve stems.....to make sure that the radial tolerances are tight....because the valve guide is what the valve seat grinder stone pilot is installed in. It guides the valve grinding.

3. And.....the heads must have new seats at this many miles. They require a .006" interference fit......and you need at this point in time....new springs.

Do not skimp on the heads....and do not take them to anyone who does not have type 4 head experience....UNLESS they are an extremely skilled machine shop that can take explicit direction/instruction....and you are prepared to provide that instruction....and it will not fome from the clymer manual. Ray
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Crisis averted. Heads never went anywhere. Smile

I also e-mailed the two places you recommended Ray, HeadFlow Masters and MOFOCO, for quotes and what they typically do with their rebuilds. Both came back pretty quick with some numbers and great information. Either way I will have to start saving up now!

I will probably box up the rest of the project until the heads come back from the machine shop. Maybe get to work on the front end in the meantime?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Yep....that will keep you busy!
Ray
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heimlich Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

I have rods(rebuilt), crank (ground), and pistons(new). You may just be able to reuse yours. When do you plan on cracking the case?
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Danno5
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

When I have heads rebuilt to stick on it I will be saving up for the camshaft that Ray recommended. Every single one of my lifters are concave now so I imagine when I go in I will also find a junk camshaft to match those worn lifters. Smile
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

Those web cams do look nice. You can even custom order them.

Make sure to get some nice valves for the heads. The metal in some of the aftermarket valves are quite soft so ask around.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:41 am    Post subject: Re: 1.7L EA assessment Reply with quote

heimlich wrote:
Those web cams do look nice. You can even custom order them.

Make sure to get some nice valves for the heads. The metal in some of the aftermarket valves are quite soft so ask around.


Agreed.....a couple of different routes on that one. If you are changing to a webcam....its means a little bit of tuning for the injection.

So if you are doing that....you could go to 42 x 36....you will need new seats....really you should get new seats anyway. Manley has a set of 914 Porsche specific valves.....which are type 4.....that are solid. Affordable and available at Summit and many other places.

Either auto atlanta or pelican should also have stock size valves. Ray
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