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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7469 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:43 pm Post subject: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Fire starts at about 2:00 minutes, propane blows at 13:30 (much louder than when the tires pffft although there are several bursts and pfffts throughout) ??? fire truck arrives at 16:00 minutes...
What could have been done to stop this?
I’ve tried to put out an engine fire in a Rabbit with my Vanagon’s fire extinguisher and I just slowed it for less than a minute. A bigger extinguisher and an open hood may have helped but I wasn’t going to open the hood on a stranger’s burning junker and I didn’t have a bigger fire extinguisher so it cooked.
What here?
Link
_________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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IdahoDoug Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2010 Posts: 10250 Location: N. Idaho
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Actually, a pretty good and fast response with the extinguisher. But it looks like a fuel fire with fuel dripping down on a recently parked vehicle. So the solution would have been a garden hose to spray up into the engine and cool it below the fuel ignition temp? Lots of cooling water up like he started spraying with the extinguisher.
Edit: Interesting how the crew puts a lot of foam into the grille and interior at the front as if they don't realize the engine is at the rear. It made me wonder if there's a future way for firefighters to come upon a scene with a vehicle and have an instant data base for vehicle recognition and instant knowledge where the fuel tank, battery, etc is in real time as they walk up to it. _________________ 1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader
Last edited by IdahoDoug on Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7469 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:09 pm Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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It’s amazing how the 3”??? fire hose of water calms the fire once the FD deployed. _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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newerwesty1987 Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2010 Posts: 407
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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"Attack lines" like that are around 1.75" hoses in the US and can still flow very high GPM's and pressure, depending on the pump settings. The big attack lines, often used by two men sitting down to hold it, with very high-flow water rates/GPMs, are only around 2.5" believe it or not.
The owner could have put it out or kept it down with a decent garden hose. Too bad there wasn't one near by or maybe he was too scared to try, which is very often the case. There is no need to be scared! Attack it till its dead. Nothing is going to explode enough to hurt you, short of maybe a propane tank but even those usually just rupture and throw a flame out, rather than explode.
The little extinguisher was applied fairly well for a laymen but the fuel was too saturated up in the cavities of the engine compartment to be put out fully.
I can tell that Fire Dept. is rural and not very experienced. Those guys were very skittish in how they attacked it, and not very well trained. I'd be yelling their ears off if I was in charge (something I used to do often!). The foam was not needed either; a good example of using something just because you have it, or maybe the LT/Captain wanted to train some rookies on it.
Lesson is: install new fuel lines and buy the big metal-nozzle extinguishers when you see them on sale! |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Just one of the other reasons I prefer diesels. |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12115 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Just one word: Diesel
Link
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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My heart goes out to these folks.
Hard to tell for sure, but it kinda looks like both of them were spraying the extinguishers on the ground.
At 5:57 is that the starter to the van that has been tripped?
Did the old rabbits have magnesium cases? _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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tjet Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014 Posts: 3533 Location: CA & NM
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:33 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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If you watch at 26:15-30, the fire flares up after they hit it with water.
It must be the magnesium bellhousing igniting. They are feeding a Class D fire O2 at that point.
Also, the start of the fire looks like something dropped. Maybe the deck lid insulation? |
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?Waldo? Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006 Posts: 9752 Location: Where?
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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levi wrote: |
Did the old rabbits have magnesium cases? |
No. |
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levi Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2005 Posts: 5522 Location: Las Vegas
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:26 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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jimf909 wrote: |
Fire starts at about 2:00 minutes, propane blows at 13:30 (much louder than when the tires pffft although there are several bursts and pfffts throughout) ??? fire truck arrives at 16:00 minutes...
What could have been done to stop this?
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It starts at about 2:05, and the extinguisher is brought to it almost a full minute later.
Since time is critical, I've practiced jumping out with one my 3 extinguishers, pop up the back hatch, pull the mattress and lid.
Just a couple seconds and you can be on it.
Practicing can only help.
Doesn't guarantee success of course, I just want to have a good chance at it.
If I happen to be in traffic in the city I won't look for a spot to pull over, just stop and jump out.
I also have a vice grip style hose clamp handy so if necessary I can clamp it on the fuel line at the tank.
I don't want the starter to engage and add fuel to the mix. _________________ One of these days I'm gonna settle down,
but till I do I won't be hangin round.
Going down that long lonesome highway,
gonna see life my way
https://youtu.be/cSrL0BXsO40 |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6832 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:02 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Gas was the fuel for the fire, but what was the source of ignition?
Assuming - they just got into it hence the engine was cold or warm and not hot enough to ignite gasoline.
The logic I'm coming up with is a fuel line burst and sprayed fuel at what - the alternator's open design where it could spark? Or another wire that was in poor condition and the liquid gas shorted it causing a spark?
Or the fuel was dripping and puddled giving a nice pocket of vapor. You hopefully would notice the smell.
That it was gas is evident from it dripping down under the engine.
Question: Did he turn off the ignition which is also the fuel pump?
Notice from the external signs that it was on fire to the camera how much time before the occupants realized it was a fire.
Question: What are the first signs to the driver that there is a fire?
Loss of power from the engine not getting fuel or your mirrors?
Question: What would have slowed the spread of the fire?
- Metal engine hatch.
- fire retardant barrier on the bottom side of the engine hatch?
http://www.americanfiresleeve.com/high-temperature...oated.html
-Boundry Layer Cooling- in this case only because it was right there in the driveway and there was a garden hose - Spraying the water into the rear from the open sliding door would have bought more time if it was started and not stopped.
- Closing all the doors to prevent air getting in there. When the rear glass popped you could see what effect the ventilation had as the flames instantly got larger above the engine
Note that I did not day Blazecut. Even though I have 2 of them under my engine hatch & just bumped the thread. I doubt they will stop a fire. The reason why is that it was created for the air cooled engine compartment which is almost air-tight. The Vanagon is hardly air-tight and I think it is going to vent away before it puts a fire out. My opinion anyway.
What would have helped the most maybe would have been recent training in fighting a fire and practicing it on your vehicle and your house as well. What is your plan of action in both cases? _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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dabaron Samba Member
Joined: June 21, 2018 Posts: 2561 Location: Philly, mang
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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it appeared that the garden hose simply spread the burning fuel and made things worse. ABC is a must.
Amazon Prime Day purchase made. _________________ 1991 Vanagon GL Camper
i had no idea i wanted to be a mechanic
"burnin oil and cookin coils" -- Destructo
BiWerks Design, LLC |
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the joker Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2006 Posts: 1287
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:41 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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blaze cut and 2 ext would have maybe saved that westy, |
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Steve M. Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013 Posts: 6832 Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:12 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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dabaron wrote: |
it appeared that the garden hose simply spread the burning fuel and made things worse. ABC is a must.
Amazon Prime Day purchase made. |
What I was referring to "Boundry Layer Cooling" is very different from what he did.
He was streaming the water and all that is doing is exactly what you said - spreading the fire by giving the gas a way to move. It floats on water so you are just giving a means to flow.
Boundry Layer Cooling is spraying the water on surrounding surfaces. In this case since the sliding door was open what he should have done is set the nozzle to spray and walk right up to the sliding door and spray it over the top of the bench seat side to side to wet the cabinets and bottom of the Westy bed. The problem for him doing this is that he did not have any breathing apparatus. At best he could have slowed it down for an alert neighbor to run up with another fire extinguisher, ( no help from neighbors at all.). It would have bought some time, but he could not have stood at the sliding door for long as smoke and steam would have come back at him. He could have hooked the nozzle on spray in the grab handle and left it, but who thinks of this in the moment.
The other problem is all the water has to go somewhere and it would have run down probably over the engine and again spread the gasoline if the fuel pump was still pumping.
A "spray" of water is thousands of droplets of water and vs. a stream of water those thousands of droplets will cool off and extinguish a fire faster then a stream. That is what fire sprinklers are all about.
The problem is it will create steam and the steam will burn you-badly if your not dressed up like a fire fighter.
That other thing that is happening is the wife is not helping. This is not to say she is not doing anything, but if the both of them had the basics of Fire Fighting the outcome might have been different instead of taking the course of action to just yell "get away from it".
It's not her fault either, this just normal people who no experience with fires.
I can say all this only because more often then not I am doing Fire Drills once a month.
Would any of this really helped them, probably not because they have no practice doing it.
Having said it though it has given readers more information on what they could do. _________________ This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.
There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them. |
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dobryan Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006 Posts: 16504 Location: Brookeville, MD
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:18 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Steve M. wrote: |
Gas was the fuel for the fire, but what was the source of ignition?
Assuming - they just got into it hence the engine was cold or warm and not hot enough to ignite gasoline.
The logic I'm coming up with is a fuel line burst and sprayed fuel at what - the alternator's open design where it could spark? Or another wire that was in poor condition and the liquid gas shorted it causing a spark?
Or the fuel was dripping and puddled giving a nice pocket of vapor. You hopefully would notice the smell.
That it was gas is evident from it dripping down under the engine.
Question: Did he turn off the ignition which is also the fuel pump?
Notice from the external signs that it was on fire to the camera how much time before the occupants realized it was a fire.
Question: What are the first signs to the driver that there is a fire?
Loss of power from the engine not getting fuel or your mirrors?
Question: What would have slowed the spread of the fire?
- Metal engine hatch.
- fire retardant barrier on the bottom side of the engine hatch?
http://www.americanfiresleeve.com/high-temperature...oated.html
-Boundry Layer Cooling- in this case only because it was right there in the driveway and there was a garden hose - Spraying the water into the rear from the open sliding door would have bought more time if it was started and not stopped.
- Closing all the doors to prevent air getting in there. When the rear glass popped you could see what effect the ventilation had as the flames instantly got larger above the engine
Note that I did not day Blazecut. Even though I have 2 of them under my engine hatch & just bumped the thread. I doubt they will stop a fire. The reason why is that it was created for the air cooled engine compartment which is almost air-tight. The Vanagon is hardly air-tight and I think it is going to vent away before it puts a fire out. My opinion anyway.
What would have helped the most maybe would have been recent training in fighting a fire and practicing it on your vehicle and your house as well. What is your plan of action in both cases? |
Having the unfortunate first hand experience of this about 11 years ago here are my observations.
Driving 40 mph on a secondary road fully loaded from a long weekend at the beach I noticed that the accelerator pedal had no input on the vehicle speed and then the engine tried to surge. Took a few seconds to realize that was really not right and about then I noticed the smoke in my side view mirrors. No one in all the traffic around me honked or flashed lights.
Pulled onto to shoulder and told everyone to bail out.
Grabbed my wimpy stock extinguisher (mistake, should have had a big ass one!) and ran to the back. Opened the hatch and exposed the engine cover, removed it to see what was burning (mistake, that just fed the fire air). Saw that fuel was involved and the wiring harness from the alternator was melted and shorting on the engine creating an ignition source and had melted thru the fuel line it was near. Used up the extinguisher on the fire and got it 80% out before I ran out of capacity. I had to back away and watch it burn to the ground. No one ran up with an extinguisher to help. I had about a 60 second window to get it under control. 15 gallons of gas make a 30 foot tall flame btw. Nothing 'blew' up except the rear hatch struts. Propane tank vented from a fitting and became a torch, gas tank burned with no explosion. Westy was a bare metal shell by the time the fire dept arrived and put it out, uncontrolled burning for about 10-15 minutes before they arrived.
I could not identify the initial cause of the fire. Possible electrical short to start it or fuel line issue. Both were in play by the time I got eyes on it. (This was on a Subie EJ25 with new fuel lines about two years prior.)
Lessons learned:
1) Need more extinguisher power (Done.)
2) Need battery cutoff near drivers seat to kill power to everything to prevent shorting and any starter or fuel pump running. (Done.)
3) Do not open the engine hatch to the interior, it just allows air to feed the fire. Fight the fire from the bottom sides by spraying up onto the engine. I wouldn't even open the license plate hatch if I could avoid it.
4) I now have a Blazecut since it cannot hurt and may buy some more time.
5) Obviously be careful to have good fuel lines and insulate/protect the unfused power leads from any grounding sources. I thought I had.
I hope no one here has to make this kind of report. It was a painful experience.... _________________ Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
Last edited by dobryan on Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dhaavers Samba Member
Joined: March 19, 2010 Posts: 7757 Location: NE MN (tinyurl.com/dhaaverslocation)
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Heartbreaking to watch, yet impossible to look away...
Ignition source? Possibly fuel pressure regulator failure, spraying directly on distributor...???
My personal fire drill involves multiple halotron extinguishers with me laying on the ground
spraying upwards into engine bay. I'd not touch license plate, hatch or engine cover at all as
doing so takes time away from actual extinguishing and possibly adding oxygen to an otherwise
fairly well confined space, while also adding considerable personal risk. Imagine popping open
the engine cover, only to have it followed by a flash of flame angled directly at your face and
entire upper body...??? No, thanks...
- Dave
Be careful out there... _________________ 86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS> |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:32 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Heartbreaking loss.
Please don’t fight fires without training.
I think the crew correctly assessed there was no more property at risk and that the Vanagon was already a total loss, ergo the ‘ casual’ pace.
Neither a blazecut nor extinguishers will fight a gasoline fed fire at that stage unless you are on in the first few seconds.
Just for laughs. Boat fire drill.
Muster all hands on bow. Buddy up, abandon ship.
Boats are constructed of approximately 1000 gallons of gasoline that makes cyanide when it burns. _________________ .ssS! |
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4790 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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good points about not opening the hatch nor license door... which makes me wonder if a strategically placed, trimmed out hole in the rear valance panel for the hose nozzle of a fire extinguisher might be a good idea to get retardant flooding the engine bay, especially on top. might save lying on the ground trying to spray up into the engine. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22668 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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Please think through the idea of rolling under with vice grips to clamp a fuel line and watch that video.
I think all the effort of access ports and extinguishers...can be better spent with prevention, we all know how. _________________ .ssS! |
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shagginwagon83 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 3800 Location: VA/TN
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Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Wow. 30 minute Vanagon fire video... |
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So the fire was fed through the return line? Don't people put a valve/check inline so this doesn't happen? I might need to do that... _________________ Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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