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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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 Posted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 9:00 pm Post subject: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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Hey all,
I'm in the process of putting an early horn ring style wheel on my 73. I'm aware of the issues i'm going to run into with the window wiper stalk, i'll cross that bridge when i get to it. I'm wondering about getting the horn to work properly.
My understanding is that on the steering column theres a copper 'arm' that juts out and is supposed to make contact with the horn contact ring on the back side of the late steering wheels.
All I want to do is take that late contact ring and mount it onto the back of an early wheel, then the pigtail off of that, solder it on to the regular old style horn contact ring. Makes sense to me at least
Where i'm confused is how to get that copper 'arm' to make contact with the steering wheel's ring. I took a pic of the gap that exists right now, and its just too far. Am I misunderstanding how this all works, or is there a way to bring the wheel and the column closer together?
Thanks |
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nogoodwithusernames
Samba Member
Joined: November 10, 2014
Posts: 599
Location: CA, USA
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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34018
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:44 am Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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Agreed.
Hey, post up a better pic of that white dash! I've only seen one, at the Type 3 Invasion in Prescott.
Yours looks pristine. I presume it was coated somehow?
Last edited by KTPhil on Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
Agreed.
Hey, post up a better pic of that white dash! I've only seen one, at the last Type 3 Invasion in Prescott. Yours looks pristine. I presume it was coated somehow? |
Yepper, coated with SEM vinyl dye. Ill post pics once i'm done with everything. Stuff works pretty good. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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What you're going to find is that the wiper arm will be hitting on the steering wheel. Dave Pallo ended up cutting the arm and making an offset holder for it to clear the steering wheel. Very slick way to go about the solution. Maybe he'll chime in here on how he did it with some pictures of his 72 Square (Elwood).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| Hey, i got under my column today and couldn't get it to budge. I'm only seeing a single allen bolt underneath. Removed that bolt and loosened the top mount i can't get it to move. I put the key in the acc position, its not locked. |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| padgett wrote: |
| Hey, i got under my column today and couldn't get it to budge. I'm only seeing a single allen bolt underneath. Removed that bolt and loosened the top mount i can't get it to move. I put the key in the acc position, its not locked. |
Not long ago I had the upper column off my 73 to replace the ignition switch The electrical part. The one allen head bolt is not used to move the collar closer to the wheel it just locks the upper column so there is no play , thought mine was broken many I read are. I suppose you can move the upper collar a bit using it. The actual adjustment are the two hex head bolts which fit into a flat bar welded to the column this bar has slotted holes this depending on how it is positioned now might give you enough movement. Take a look at that area. The column might be pretty tight in the rubber bush that in fits through. I never tried to move mine since I still have the stock wheel.
If I recall you can't move it far because the upper bearing has a snap ring that keeps the bearing seated in the upper collar and I believe the steering shaft is one piece since the steering wheel stock one collapses as does the lower end of the shaft. At least that's what I recall might be wrong about it being one piece. Hope it works out for you. |
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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:13 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| blues90 wrote: |
| padgett wrote: |
| Hey, i got under my column today and couldn't get it to budge. I'm only seeing a single allen bolt underneath. Removed that bolt and loosened the top mount i can't get it to move. I put the key in the acc position, its not locked. |
Not long ago I had the upper column off my 73 to replace the ignition switch The electrical part. The one allen head bolt is not used to move the collar closer to the wheel it just locks the upper column so there is no play , thought mine was broken many I read are. I suppose you can move the upper collar a bit using it. The actual adjustment are the two hex head bolts which fit into a flat bar welded to the column this bar has slotted holes this depending on how it is positioned now might give you enough movement. Take a look at that area. The column might be pretty tight in the rubber bush that in fits through. I never tried to move mine since I still have the stock wheel.
If I recall you can't move it far because the upper bearing has a snap ring that keeps the bearing seated in the upper collar and I believe the steering shaft is one piece since the steering wheel stock one collapses as does the lower end of the shaft. At least that's what I recall might be wrong about it being one piece. Hope it works out for you. |
That cleared alot up, thanks sir. I did notice the bracket holding the column to the body's holes were slotted, theres a bit of room for me to move the column forward i'm seeing, but the damn thing wont budge. Is the point where its binding most likely where it goes through the bulkhead near the pedal box? |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| padgett wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
| padgett wrote: |
| Hey, i got under my column today and couldn't get it to budge. I'm only seeing a single allen bolt underneath. Removed that bolt and loosened the top mount i can't get it to move. I put the key in the acc position, its not locked. |
Not long ago I had the upper column off my 73 to replace the ignition switch The electrical part. The one allen head bolt is not used to move the collar closer to the wheel it just locks the upper column so there is no play , thought mine was broken many I read are. I suppose you can move the upper collar a bit using it. The actual adjustment are the two hex head bolts which fit into a flat bar welded to the column this bar has slotted holes this depending on how it is positioned now might give you enough movement. Take a look at that area. The column might be pretty tight in the rubber bush that in fits through. I never tried to move mine since I still have the stock wheel.
If I recall you can't move it far because the upper bearing has a snap ring that keeps the bearing seated in the upper collar and I believe the steering shaft is one piece since the steering wheel stock one collapses as does the lower end of the shaft. At least that's what I recall might be wrong about it being one piece. Hope it works out for you. |
That cleared alot up, thanks sir. I did notice the bracket holding the column to the body's holes were slotted, theres a bit of room for me to move the column forward i'm seeing, but the damn thing wont budge. Is the point where its binding most likely where it goes through the bulkhead near the pedal box? |
Yes that black grommet where the column goes through is most likely stuck to the column after all these decades . The only thought I can offer is find something thin that is not sharp perhaps a feeler gauge or small screw driver with dulled edges and try to get that in even part way then spray some silicone lube in there and try to do this in several spots around the black grommet . Loosen the two bolts so the column lowers yet don't remove them and see it after lubing you can move the column up and down to try to work the silicone spray lube in. You can remove the two bolts but be certain to support the column so it does not ruin the grommet and try to rotate the column a bit this might allow the lube in and break the column free. Just don't force it you don't want to destroy that black bushing or pull it out of the metal wall . I've read it can be stubborn yet if you take you time and get the lube in there and not force anything it should break free . That's what I would do . As I said if you use something thin yet stiff enough like a feeler gauge spray silicone around the grommet and on the feeler gauge as well to try to get the silicone between the column and grommet then it should free up just take your time. I imagine after all these years the grommet has probably bonded the the paint on the column. Don't use oil of any type . |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| padgett wrote: |
Hey all,
I'm in the process of putting an early horn ring style wheel on my 73. I'm aware of the issues i'm going to run into with the window wiper stalk, i'll cross that bridge when i get to it. I'm wondering about getting the horn to work properly.
Thanks |
Once you move the upper housing toward the steering wheel (to close the gap) you'll find the wiper stalk hitting the steering wheel spoke. The steering wheel should have a brass ring on the bottom of it for the horn to work, but you have to close up the gap for that to happen. There should be 2 bolts at the dash lip (uses an allen wrench) and a clamp bolt holding it together. Be careful working around the clamp bolt, as that area is fragile (known to break). Those are the 3 adjusting points for the column head. Ideally you want to close the gap up to 2 mms +-1mm.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| padgett wrote: |
Hey all,
I'm in the process of putting an early horn ring style wheel on my 73. I'm aware of the issues i'm going to run into with the window wiper stalk, i'll cross that bridge when i get to it. I'm wondering about getting the horn to work properly.
Thanks |
Once you move the upper housing toward the steering wheel (to close the gap) you'll find the wiper stalk hitting the steering wheel spoke. The steering wheel should have a brass ring on the bottom of it for the horn to work, but you have to close up the gap for that to happen. There should be 2 bolts at the dash lip (uses an allen wrench) and a clamp bolt holding it together. Be careful working around the clamp bolt, as that area is fragile (known to break). Those are the 3 adjusting points for the column head. Ideally you want to close the gap up to 2 mms +-1mm. |
Bob the entire problem is it looks like he has about 1/4" of a gap. Since the column is one piece other than the upper collar you can only move the collar at most 1/8" before it slides off the tab on the column then nothing will keep it from turning there is a tab welded to the column than the allen head bolt on the left side if he goes to far the upper collar will not clamp , at most maybe 1/8". As you try to move the collar closer to the steering wheel the upper bearing is secured by an internal snap ring that will stop you from moving it and since the steering shaft is one piece you can only move it a small amount before the upper bearing will stop it. I don't see moving it 1/4" without pulling on the rag joint and the way you are supposed to adjust the gap is by moving the column in the rubber bush. usually the gap is to small which is not an issue to move the column away just a bit or closer by a bit. I don't see it moving 1/4". I know the steering box has a notch for that lock bolt to fit and be secure. I'm not sure how much the steering shaft end can be moved on the steering wheel side of the rag joint or if it also has a slot for the lock bolt to fit through , never had that apart. |
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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:56 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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the issue was the rubber bushing on the bulkhead, sprayed it with silicone lube and opened it up a bit with a flathead and it moves great now. Takes care of the gap perfectly.
Also I got my hands on a super beetle wiper stalk, looks like the internals are the same as the t3 and it might clear the steering wheel. Gonna try that tomorrow AM. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| padgett wrote: |
the issue was the rubber bushing on the bulkhead, sprayed it with silicone lube and opened it up a bit with a flathead and it moves great now. Takes care of the gap perfectly.
Also I got my hands on a super beetle wiper stalk, looks like the internals are the same as the t3 and it might clear the steering wheel. Gonna try that tomorrow AM. |
Look it over real good, as I think it's the same part.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| padgett wrote: |
the issue was the rubber bushing on the bulkhead, sprayed it with silicone lube and opened it up a bit with a flathead and it moves great now. Takes care of the gap perfectly.
Also I got my hands on a super beetle wiper stalk, looks like the internals are the same as the t3 and it might clear the steering wheel. Gonna try that tomorrow AM. |
I'm surprised it moved that much without the upper bearing stopping it. I just remember how the upper bearing sat in mine with the correct gap, it didn't have any room to move into the upper collar deeper and the internal snap ring held it from coming up. At most since I didn't measure it there may have been 1/16" it could move. The steering shaft rotates inside the column and it only has one bearing on a 73. The Bentley only states moving the column to adjust the play and is not very detailed on the subject. |
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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| padgett wrote: |
the issue was the rubber bushing on the bulkhead, sprayed it with silicone lube and opened it up a bit with a flathead and it moves great now. Takes care of the gap perfectly.
Also I got my hands on a super beetle wiper stalk, looks like the internals are the same as the t3 and it might clear the steering wheel. Gonna try that tomorrow AM. |
Look it over real good, as I think it's the same part. |
Nah.
The arm fouls the column shroud, the assembly wont fit. I could notch the column, but then i'm doubtful i'd be able to get at my keys. Back to bending the t3 stalk. |
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padgett
Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2017
Posts: 141
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: Early Steering wheel on a late car. Column Gap? |
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I got it fit right.
For the life of me I couldn't get the t3 wiper arms to work with me. One snapped while bending (not enough heat) 2nd one literally melted (too much heat)
Ended up using the beetle one and notching the column, and bending that one. Notched actually just the ignition cylinder holder, so I don't feel bad notching that.
No issues other than that. Used a t3 horn ring instead of a beetle one, fit this ISP wheel much more flush. And just used the clamping power of the horn ring and the inner horn ring to hold the lead from the outer horn ring in place.
Fiddly job, but not difficult id say.
Thanks for the help, boys |
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