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Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

FreeBug wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but here's something I just don't get: people are putting big $$$$ into their engines, etc, but even the best builds here don't have a decent rear apron. At those prices, I would expect well-molded front and back "tins", to make the compartment airtight, like stock.

I'll probably be told that id doesn't matter to any measurable extent, but still, wouldn't you like something like that?

I do understand that the front "tin" is hard to make in fiberglass, owing to thickness issues, and the plethora of pulleys available. But still...

Because they are STOCK. All stock OE German tins.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

H2OSB wrote:
APPLEGREENVW wrote:
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I don't see anything ugly this photo. Cool Drool


I'm with Vamram...I want this engine. It's beautiful. Imagine it as a 1911 with 36 Dells, or a 2056 with 40s.

H2OSB


Very true. Its best one ive seen. It still looks like a VW. I have noticed alot of german look cars that have a type 4, and owners bragging about their "Porsche Powered" bug. But isnt the type 4 a VW? VW Logo
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914


Isnt a 914 engine a VW engine that also comes in VW buses?
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Wreck
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

FreeBug wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but here's something I just don't get: people are putting big $$$$ into their engines, etc, but even the best builds here don't have a decent rear apron. At those prices, I would expect well-molded front and back "tins", to make the compartment airtight, like stock.

I'll probably be told that id doesn't matter to any measurable extent, but still, wouldn't you like something like that?

I do understand that the front "tin" is hard to make in fiberglass, owing to thickness issues, and the plethora of pulleys available. But still...


I agree , it is where the top end kits (CSP & DTM) really drop the ball . Sharpbuilt has all the rest of the "Tin" molded in fibreglass shaped like a type one . http://www.sharpbuilt.com.au/sharpbuilt1/page11.htm

But if you use his kit you have the ugly oil filler Very Happy That's why I made my own centre mount with intergral breather tower/AC compressor mount with oil filler . It's all satin black so hard to get a good photo. Also the custom should is centred on the cylinders .

Anyone making there own conversion using Joe's manual can cut down type 1 tin to fit . The joining flange between the upper and lower cylinder tins is the perfect height for type 1 front and rear tins . The breast tin behind the pulley can also be modified to fit .

On the mention on pulleys have a look at the pulley ratio on my upright conversion with the type1 fan on the first page. That is on a 2.6 liter with 10.5 comp making approx 165whp , it is a true daily driver and CHT's stayed cool (140C) when driving in peak hour stop start traffic for 40minutes in +30C tropical summer temps . (measured with an MGL TC-1 with omega sensors on each cylinder ). I'd be surprised if any NA type1 making 200HP could do that on a daily basis and have a good life span .
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

FreeBug wrote:
Erik G wrote:
since everyone is talking about fans, and I learn a lot from this forum

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I can see for drag racing, but daily use? Seems... sketch

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269517


I find it very hard to imagine that working on a DD.


Right? But who drag races a type4?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
Glenn wrote:
^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914


Isnt a 914 engine a VW engine that also comes in VW buses?


I'm surprised Ray hasn't chimed in . The type 4 was developed for the VW Type 4 car first . 1700cc . then it went into the bus and 914 joint venture . the 1700 ,1800 type 4's are mostly all the same spec between the makes . the 2lt 914 type 4 got different heads to boost performance . they changed the spark plug angle and gave it bigger valves and a slightly changed exhaust port . I believe the intake manifold runners were bigger than the 2lt bus engine .
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
Glenn wrote:
^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914


Isnt a 914 engine a VW engine that also comes in VW buses?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Glenn wrote:
^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914


Isnt a 914 engine a VW engine that also comes in VW buses?


I'm surprised Ray hasn't chimed in . The type 4 was developed for the VW Type 4 car first . 1700cc . then it went into the bus and 914 joint venture . the 1700 ,1800 type 4's are mostly all the same spec between the makes . the 2lt 914 type 4 got different heads to boost performance . they changed the spark plug angle and gave it bigger valves and a slightly changed exhaust port . I believe the intake manifold runners were bigger than the 2lt bus engine .


Sounds like when someone says their Type 4 is made by Porsche they are just trying to sound cool. But if Porsche actually manufactured Type 4 engines someome speak up.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
Wreck wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Glenn wrote:
^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914


Isnt a 914 engine a VW engine that also comes in VW buses?


I'm surprised Ray hasn't chimed in . The type 4 was developed for the VW Type 4 car first . 1700cc . then it went into the bus and 914 joint venture . the 1700 ,1800 type 4's are mostly all the same spec between the makes . the 2lt 914 type 4 got different heads to boost performance . they changed the spark plug angle and gave it bigger valves and a slightly changed exhaust port . I believe the intake manifold runners were bigger than the 2lt bus engine .


Sounds like when someone says their Type 4 is made by Porsche they are just trying to sound cool. But if Porsche actually manufactured Type 4 engines someome speak up.


I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .

I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.

I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Wreck wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Wreck wrote:
jpaull wrote:
Glenn wrote:
^^^^^^^
Type 4 = 914


Isnt a 914 engine a VW engine that also comes in VW buses?


I'm surprised Ray hasn't chimed in . The type 4 was developed for the VW Type 4 car first . 1700cc . then it went into the bus and 914 joint venture . the 1700 ,1800 type 4's are mostly all the same spec between the makes . the 2lt 914 type 4 got different heads to boost performance . they changed the spark plug angle and gave it bigger valves and a slightly changed exhaust port . I believe the intake manifold runners were bigger than the 2lt bus engine .


Sounds like when someone says their Type 4 is made by Porsche they are just trying to sound cool. But if Porsche actually manufactured Type 4 engines someome speak up.


I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .


Yeah thats what im talking about 💪 VW Logo 💪
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
since everyone is talking about fans, and I learn a lot from this forum

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I can see for drag racing, but daily use? Seems... sketch

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269517


I emailed him a few weeks ago.

"Yes this system was designed for the street the motor in the add is a 2.666L daily driver
Thanks Mr.Bill"
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

I sure like my little 1.8 type4. Old photo but still looks a bit like this.stays cool in the SoCal summer. Gobs of power and torque, a very happy little motor in a 63 rag.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Wreck wrote:
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .

I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.

I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH.

Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Actually.....technically.....its a VW engine. As noted...it came in the VW 411 first. But it is also the exact same engine to the last part number....as the type 4 engines that NEXT went into the Porsche 914 ( in 1.7L and 1.8L displacements). The only differences are sheet metal and exhaust manifolds.
The 2.0L engine .....914 specific....was the only one that was a Porsche only version of the engine. Different pistons, heads, sheet metal, intake system....and in Europe....a different cam. So yes....technically....if you have a 2.0L Porsche 914 engine....you DO have a Porsche engine.
And....on which factory floor its made has little difference. Its like saying the Ford "Cologne" V6 that went into more brands than Ford....makes those cars either Ford's or German built.

And.....the type 4 was NOT a bus engine. It was LATER made into a bus engine. The versions in the bus....whether 1.7L, 1.8L or 2.0L.....were only the same as 411, 412 and 914 Porsche.....in the overall case castings. 1.7 and 1.8 head castings, crank and rod forgings....were the same. Pistons, cams, induction, ignition, tuning...were a good deal different.

Though the bus engines are "detuned"....they are made the way they need to be for a 4000 lb low geared loaf.

But opt for half hp?....stock at least....about the best that type 1s put out was what....58hp? Maybe 62 hp?....and you could overheat them with extended 65 mph driving in hot climates?....and they typically need a valve job at 50-70k....and have a "best running" service life before a refurb (not a total rebuild).....of 80-100k?

The type 4 is really just the type 1.....that finally got all of the improvements VW learned from building what.....15 million vehicles between about 1949 and 1966 when type 4 hit the drawing boards (it came out in the 411 in 1968).

But.....it has no need for "hoover mods". They are built in. It already has ratio rockers from the factory (1.3:1). Larger oil cooler with dedicated air supply, larger oil galleys, larger crank webs in the case, 40% more head cooling fins, full flow oil filter, crank fed fan....no belts, larger displacement across the board, they rarely need align bore due to better case alloy, no case cracking issues.

All of them came with alternator. All of them came with either twin carbs or fuel injection.

So why would you want one?....well....in type 4 cars....not so much buses....these are typically 150,000 mile engines. No half life valve job needed. Of course all of this dependent on how well you care for it. All day everyday high speed highway in hot weather....no problem. Better low end torque than any of the STOCK type 1 motors....and generally better heating even without gas furnace. And roughly 1.75x tbe hp of the basic bug out of the box.

In the 411/412 and 914...

In the injected 1.7L....82hp
In the injected 1.8L (smog) 76hp....what a detuned waste...because
In the Euro 412 1.8 with twin carbs.....about 85
A 1.8L with proper compression and ignition with stock injection....about 90hp
914 2.0 with injection...same exact injsction with same exact parts as 1.7L except injectors.....95hp.
Euro version with only a cam change and +0.4 compression ratio change....an honest 100hp.

So.....having some versions of a type 4 engine in your car....and calling it a Porsche engine....if its at least Porsche spec.....I have little problem with. Having a beat out 1.8 bus motor in your bug and calling it a Porsche engine.....I have an issue with.

I also keep wondering....not beating on anyone.....if you are NOT racing (thats a different deal).....how you can get hung up in "cost per HP" calculations. You are in the wrong hobby if you are looking at it that way and you are not racing. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Wreck wrote:
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .

I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.

I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH.

Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference?

The 912 engine was an evolution of the 356 engine.

The 9176 912E was a 914/T4 put in a stripped down 911.

1966 912 engine
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Iíve had several T4/Porsche 914 motors fall into my lap.
Iíve 2 2L and an 1.8L and a shell to build up. Iíve a pair of 2L pair of 3bolt heads (1 rebuilt) and a single 3bolt head. Plus, Iíve a line on components for. 2800.
Would I be foolish to not make use of the resources Iíve been given?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

To make is simple, THe 914 was to be called a VW in the U.S and a Porsche with the 6 cylinder in Europe.

Well the it was only a verbal agreement and the head of VW died. The new guy said both engine the 4 and the 6 in the U.S will be under the Porsche name.

The T-4 came out in 1968 in the 914 later in 73 it went into buses.

So is it a Porsche or is it a VW. Is the Rabbit a VW or an AUDI

Is the Toyota BRZ a Subaru or a Toyota

Is the Toyota Supra A Toyota or a BMW

Is the Porsche 912e with a T-4 engine a VW or a Porsche

The 1.7 914 had 80 hp 20 more HP the the most powerful T-1

The 1.8 914 had 84 hp

The 2.0 914 had 100 hp

A fact most guys don't know is the 914-6 was only 2.0 and had only 109 hp
the 914 was almost as fast except on top end.

The 914-6 in one year won 11 out of 12 races, and that one year came in 2nd.

Soooooooo, What engine do you want in your bug does it really matter if it is a Porsche or a VW - it is the HP ya want.

My engine I bought at Manhattan Porsche in NYC - Unused Training engine.
I took the Porsche Emblem off my crashed 914 and put it on my engine.

Porsche sold it as a porsche.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote



Last edited by LivinInnaVWBus on Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:34 pm; edited 3 times in total
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