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Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1
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Erik G
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
oprn wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Wreck wrote:
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .

I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.

I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH.

Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference?

The 912 engine was an evolution of the 356 engine.

The 9176 912E was a 914/T4 put in a stripped down 911.

1966 912 engine
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The owner needs to buy the big bore cast 1720's. No harm no foul on a 912. Shouldn't be a part of this conversation though
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Wouldn’t the T1 technically be a Porsche engine since it was designed by Porsche and his team of engineers?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Rich GOOD ONE!!!!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
I also keep wondering....not beating on anyone.....if you are NOT racing (thats a different deal).....how you can get hung up in "cost per HP" calculations. You are in the wrong hobby if you are looking at it that way and you are not racing. Ray


Ehh.. I disagree.

There is a HUGE spectrum between stock and full on race. I don't have any desire to build a full on race engine, but I also have little desire to drive around a low powered stock engine too. Somewhere in the middle of that spectrum is MY ideal point. But the cost versus HP for the T1 and T4 across that scale between stock and wild are pretty disproportionate. Not arguing that the T4 isn't a better design, and certainly not considering expected lifespan either. Just looking at initial build cost to get XXhp.

Example: I had a VERY nice 2276 T1 stroker in my '67 that I built several years ago (Autolena case, CB crank and rods, k8 cam, AA forged 94s, Tims STGII heads, 48IDFs, A1 exhaust, etc, etc). It easily should have been in that 165hp to 175hp range, and was a great driver engine. It certainly WASN'T cheap, but if I were to go and try and build a 2270 T4 to that same power level, cost would very likely be 50% more. One of the BIGGEST reasons would be the premium cost of cooling, exhaust, and cylinder heads for the T4.

All that said, I think my current Bus 2L will eventually be transformed into a 2056 for my 67. I think that's the hot ticket for hp vs cost in the T4, and being able to take advantage of the inherent improvements in the T4 design.

Just my opinion anyways...
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Richparker

you got to see this video, the first Porsche was built with VW parts, engine, gauges, seats.

This was Porsche's first Porsche sports car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaDWPBco07w
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oprn
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Don't forget the lowly type 3 when quoting HP figures for the VW. The dual carb type 3 was factory rated at 66 Hp and when they upgraded it to EFI it was advertised at 65 HP. When they put that same DP 1600 in the Bug, Bus and KG with a single carb it was rated at 60 HP. Those ratings were before automotive industry came out with the new funky system of HP ratings to try and fool the insurance industry.

We keep talking HP here but what about comparing torque. Torque is what really counts to move your car down the road in a real life driving enviroment. How do the stock torque ratings compare between the type 1 and type 4?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
oprn wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Wreck wrote:
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy .

I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.

I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH.

Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference?

The 912 engine was an evolution of the 356 engine.

The 9176 912E was a 914/T4 put in a stripped down 911.

1966 912 engine
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Thanks, I am not up on my Porsche air cooled history so much and didn't realize there was a difference between the 912 and the 912E.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Vee Dub Nut wrote:


Ehh.. I disagree.

There is a HUGE spectrum between stock and full on race. I don't have any desire to build a full on race engine, but I also have little desire to drive around a low powered stock engine too. Somewhere in the middle of that spectrum is MY ideal point. But the cost versus HP for the T1 and T4 across that scale between stock and wild are pretty disproportionate. Not arguing that the T4 isn't a better design, and certainly not considering expected lifespan either. Just looking at initial build cost to get XXhp.

Example: I had a VERY nice 2276 T1 stroker in my '67 that I built several years ago (Autolena case, CB crank and rods, k8 cam, AA forged 94s, Tims STGII heads, 48IDFs, A1 exhaust, etc, etc). It easily should have been in that 165hp to 175hp range, and was a great driver engine. It certainly WASN'T cheap, but if I were to go and try and build a 2270 T4 to that same power level, cost would very likely be 50% more. One of the BIGGEST reasons would be the premium cost of cooling, exhaust, and cylinder heads for the T4.

I am going to disagree with you!

To me a 2276/170hp type I engine is a pretty radical upgrade! That's a 43% increase in displacement and a 283% increase in HP!

I built a mild type 4 for my Buggy, 1911, Webers, Web cam, crank fired ignition, estimated at 95 - 100 hp for about $3000 CDN. That would be about $2190 US dollars. How much HP would I get for that price on a type 1 rebuild?

I would be lucky to get a stock rebuild at 60 hp on a type 1 for that price! Now factor in that this engine will likely outlast me... how do you get better value than that?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Trowing another stick in the fire.... Another option would be the type 5 engine, the WBX. They can be converted to air cooling with a bit of machine Work.
You get the look of a type 1 engine, but with the stronger WBX crank shaft (VW did WBX with 112 HK stock), a screw on oil filter, factory sand seal, 5 bolt flywheel, aluminium case etc.
Done right, its almost impossible to tell the difference between a type 1 and a type 5 "oxyboxer".

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:

The 2.0L engine .....914 specific....was the only one that was a Porsche only version of the engine. Different pistons, heads, sheet metal, intake system....and in Europe....a different cam. So yes....technically....if you have a 2.0L Porsche 914 engine....you DO have a Porsche engine.
. Ray


Ray, Technically, If the 2.0 in the 914 is really a Porsche engine, why does it have the VW logo to the right of every engine number on all 2.0's?

Next, if you ignore the VW logo, what do you do with it? Grind it off to hide the evidence?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


When I baited people earlier with the "is it Porsche or VW", I didn't expect you would actually bite. You of all people ought to know better. Have some pride in VW's man and just give VW credit for it. Type 4, be it in a 411,412, bus, 914 or whatever is 100% Volkswagen Produced. If your blind to that little symbol showing who manufactured it, you should see the similarities in all type 4 blocks and know they are all Volkswagen.

If the Type 4 crowd didn't have people acting snooty calling their VW engines Porsche engines, it would be much more appealing to build one. They really do have great potential.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

I took it that all Ray was trying to say was that the 2lt 914 was the only engine not assembled by VW , not sure if the heads have a VW logo or not .

Interesting topic in itself is when does the engine stop being a VW flat four .
say Pauter and Autocraft being just another derivative of an A/C flat four . My take is when the stock cooling tins can no longer be fitted without major modification .

Very nice Oxyboxer a couple of posts ago .
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Which brings us back to the Porsche 64, supposed to be the first Porsche

Most of the parts a VW. Engine, seats, instruments, headlights

We are talking 1932 ( I think ).

So if it has all the VW labels is it a VW??? The badge on hood I guess don't matter.


OPRN------- the TYPE 3 you are right 65 hp. I left it out , sorry. I had several.

Note: the T-3 was the first Electronic Fuel Injected Car for the masses!!!!

That hp made it possible for the first fully automatic VW the Type 3.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:48 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

My 2.0 Porsche engine install is not as Bling, Bling as the other installs but it's running really cool in 100deg plus weather.
I used the CSP kit at half price compared to the DMT Kit. If your curious. yes... you have to adjust here and there
to make it fit right.
I Know it needs a wash Laughing but it's a daily driver! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Vee Dub Nut wrote:


Ehh.. I disagree.

There is a HUGE spectrum between stock and full on race. I don't have any desire to build a full on race engine, but I also have little desire to drive around a low powered stock engine too. Somewhere in the middle of that spectrum is MY ideal point. But the cost versus HP for the T1 and T4 across that scale between stock and wild are pretty disproportionate. Not arguing that the T4 isn't a better design, and certainly not considering expected lifespan either. Just looking at initial build cost to get XXhp.

Example: I had a VERY nice 2276 T1 stroker in my '67 that I built several years ago (Autolena case, CB crank and rods, k8 cam, AA forged 94s, Tims STGII heads, 48IDFs, A1 exhaust, etc, etc). It easily should have been in that 165hp to 175hp range, and was a great driver engine. It certainly WASN'T cheap, but if I were to go and try and build a 2270 T4 to that same power level, cost would very likely be 50% more. One of the BIGGEST reasons would be the premium cost of cooling, exhaust, and cylinder heads for the T4.

I am going to disagree with you!

To me a 2276/170hp type I engine is a pretty radical upgrade! That's a 43% increase in displacement and a 283% increase in HP!

I built a mild type 4 for my Buggy, 1911, Webers, Web cam, crank fired ignition, estimated at 95 - 100 hp for about $3000 CDN. That would be about $2190 US dollars. How much HP would I get for that price on a type 1 rebuild?

I would be lucky to get a stock rebuild at 60 hp on a type 1 for that price! Now factor in that this engine will likely outlast me... how do you get better value than that?


Radical is subjective right... doesn't mean the same to me as it does to you. I also had a turbocharged 2276 in the same car. Again, further down that spectrum between stock and race. I just used the 2276 as an example, as I actually built/paid for and ran the T1 2276 before, and was just pricing out what it would take to get my T4 to a similar power level 2270. There is a quite difference. For example, I had less than $1k in my T1 heads to support that power. I can't touch T4 heads to support that for less than $3k. Again, just talking initial $$$ outlay to build for XX power. I'd certainly agree that the 2270 T4 has other advantages.

I think your T4 1911 engine example glosses over some of the specific costs related to turning a T4 into a T1 style engine, and it was probably a frugal build (nothing wrong with that). Just to clairify, when I say frugal, I'm talking DIY'ing as much as possible, picking up deals on used/near new parts, etc. I think you could do the same with a 1915cc T1 (69x94) that would perform similarly for about the same $$$ too.

My opinion anyways.. I'm looking forward to messing with my T4. Something different/new for me. Cool
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:31 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

I agree, it all depends on the what you paid for the T-4 and if you have to repair or replace.

Some of my customers got a T-4 cheap, that was like 15 to 20 years ago and most were 1700cc. They did valve jobs clean up the heads ( rarely problems with 1700 heads). Phase one was just re ring the pistons, new bearings and throw in a cam. Oh and balance it. 80 to 90hp forever.

Phase two would be going to 2.0 cylinders. 100 to 110 hp. Forever.

If you need heads etc, big bucks. My thing was do 2.0 and you got a great machine that cost what building a T-1 up to a 2.0. That is a big jump up from 1600cc -- 400 cc above stock to be exact. The T-4 case was made for a 2.0. 2.0 is a stock T-4.

Go larger with the T-1 sure you can have the HP but now we are talking stress. Engine life drops proportionally to the larger it gets. It is a balance of your cost vs engine live.

My manual was DIY - translated it Cheap.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
Erik G wrote:
since everyone is talking about fans, and I learn a lot from this forum

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I can see for drag racing, but daily use? Seems... sketch

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269517


I emailed him a few weeks ago.

"Yes this system was designed for the street the motor in the add is a 2.666L daily driver
Thanks Mr.Bill"
Did you ask him where the alternator to power those fans is? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time...
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Wow, I never saw that fanhousing. Electric Fans!! I noticed also the Memorial to my friend Joe Locicero...

Crazy, after 8 years of deciding I will be selling this big of T-4 History, one of Joe's first DTM's

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=500134&highlight=amazing+story
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

jpaull wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:

The 2.0L engine .....914 specific....was the only one that was a Porsche only version of the engine. Different pistons, heads, sheet metal, intake system....and in Europe....a different cam. So yes....technically....if you have a 2.0L Porsche 914 engine....you DO have a Porsche engine.
. Ray


Ray, Technically, If the 2.0 in the 914 is really a Porsche engine, why does it have the VW logo to the right of every engine number on all 2.0's?

Next, if you ignore the VW logo, what do you do with it? Grind it off to hide the evidence?


When I baited people earlier with the "is it Porsche or VW", I didn't expect you would actually bite. You of all people ought to know better. Have some pride in VW's man and just give VW credit for it. Type 4, be it in a 411,412, bus, 914 or whatever is 100% Volkswagen Produced. If your blind to that little symbol showing who manufactured it, you should see the similarities in all type 4 blocks and know they are all Volkswagen.

If the Type 4 crowd didn't have people acting snooty calling their VW engines Porsche engines, it would be much more appealing to build one. They really do have great potential.


You DO realize dont you...that virtually every Porsche made since 1969 and even a few before that time....have a SLEW of parts in them ...one might say virtually every part....that has either and sometimes BOTH...the VW and Audi symbol right?

And yet...most of those parts are unique to the Porsche car they came in. Designed for it...and only fit on it.
So I guess by the token of having the VW symbol on its parts... none of the Porsches are Porsches...because they have VW/Audi logos on them....right?

Why can one not say that same issue...with a slew of parts having the Bosch orHella name on them...makes a car NOT made by X manufacturer?

The fact of the matter is....as I CLEARLY stated.....the 914 type 4 2.0 engine...is not found in any other VW. Only in Porsche.....and VW had been making parts for Porsche for decades before anyway....so is this saying that none of the Porsches are real....they are all VW?

Mot people are not aware....that that crappy little 90's econo box...the Hyundai Excel....has a transmission designed and for a while manufactured for them...by Porsche. And that the steering rack system for that car....was done by Lotus. Does that mean that we cannot call it a Hyundai....we must call it a Porsche/Lotus?

Likewise...the Dodge Omni-Horizon....(a competent shit box) had a 4 banger that clearly had the four rings stamped like 9" long in the valve cover....made in Europe (among several other engines that went into this car). Are we saying that the Omni was an Audi and not a REAL Dodge?

One should know by now....especially now...when Mercedes are built in Alabama....and my mom and dads new Audi A-6 S-line (a $73k sled)...was built in czech republic.....that exactly who manufacturers a part or platform where....has little to do with what it actually is.

If you show me an W or EA series type 4 engine....its both a VW anda Porsche part...but primarily VW. If you show me a GA series type 4 engine with 3 bolt heads...its a Porsche part...because it has always been a Porsche part regardless of who manufactured and designed it.

You swallowed your own "bait". You have to know the details before you start.... Wink Very Happy

Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Zed999 wrote:
LivinInnaVWBus wrote:
Erik G wrote:
since everyone is talking about fans, and I learn a lot from this forum

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



I can see for drag racing, but daily use? Seems... sketch

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269517


I emailed him a few weeks ago.

"Yes this system was designed for the street the motor in the add is a 2.666L daily driver
Thanks Mr.Bill"
Did you ask him where the alternator to power those fans is? Or am I missing something? Wouldn't be the first time...


It's underneath, part of the kit. I didn't understand either, but saw the belt
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 Reply with quote

Motor7710 wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

My 2.0 Porsche engine install is not as Bling, Bling as the other installs but it's running really cool in 100deg plus weather.
I used the CSP kit at half price compared to the DMT Kit. If your curious. yes... you have to adjust here and there
to make it fit right.
I Know it needs a wash Laughing but it's a daily driver! Very Happy


IMO, your car is bad ass!

H2OSB
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