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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:31 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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I agree, it all depends on the what you paid for the T-4 and if you have to repair or replace.
Some of my customers got a T-4 cheap, that was like 15 to 20 years ago and most were 1700cc. They did valve jobs clean up the heads ( rarely problems with 1700 heads). Phase one was just re ring the pistons, new bearings and throw in a cam. Oh and balance it. 80 to 90hp forever.
Phase two would be going to 2.0 cylinders. 100 to 110 hp. Forever.
If you need heads etc, big bucks. My thing was do 2.0 and you got a great machine that cost what building a T-1 up to a 2.0. That is a big jump up from 1600cc -- 400 cc above stock to be exact. The T-4 case was made for a 2.0. 2.0 is a stock T-4.
Go larger with the T-1 sure you can have the HP but now we are talking stress. Engine life drops proportionally to the larger it gets. It is a balance of your cost vs engine live.
My manual was DIY - translated it Cheap. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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Vee Dub Nut Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Dallas, GA
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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oprn wrote: |
Vee Dub Nut wrote: |
Ehh.. I disagree.
There is a HUGE spectrum between stock and full on race. I don't have any desire to build a full on race engine, but I also have little desire to drive around a low powered stock engine too. Somewhere in the middle of that spectrum is MY ideal point. But the cost versus HP for the T1 and T4 across that scale between stock and wild are pretty disproportionate. Not arguing that the T4 isn't a better design, and certainly not considering expected lifespan either. Just looking at initial build cost to get XXhp.
Example: I had a VERY nice 2276 T1 stroker in my '67 that I built several years ago (Autolena case, CB crank and rods, k8 cam, AA forged 94s, Tims STGII heads, 48IDFs, A1 exhaust, etc, etc). It easily should have been in that 165hp to 175hp range, and was a great driver engine. It certainly WASN'T cheap, but if I were to go and try and build a 2270 T4 to that same power level, cost would very likely be 50% more. One of the BIGGEST reasons would be the premium cost of cooling, exhaust, and cylinder heads for the T4. |
I am going to disagree with you!
To me a 2276/170hp type I engine is a pretty radical upgrade! That's a 43% increase in displacement and a 283% increase in HP!
I built a mild type 4 for my Buggy, 1911, Webers, Web cam, crank fired ignition, estimated at 95 - 100 hp for about $3000 CDN. That would be about $2190 US dollars. How much HP would I get for that price on a type 1 rebuild?
I would be lucky to get a stock rebuild at 60 hp on a type 1 for that price! Now factor in that this engine will likely outlast me... how do you get better value than that? |
Radical is subjective right... doesn't mean the same to me as it does to you. I also had a turbocharged 2276 in the same car. Again, further down that spectrum between stock and race. I just used the 2276 as an example, as I actually built/paid for and ran the T1 2276 before, and was just pricing out what it would take to get my T4 to a similar power level 2270. There is a quite difference. For example, I had less than $1k in my T1 heads to support that power. I can't touch T4 heads to support that for less than $3k. Again, just talking initial $$$ outlay to build for XX power. I'd certainly agree that the 2270 T4 has other advantages.
I think your T4 1911 engine example glosses over some of the specific costs related to turning a T4 into a T1 style engine, and it was probably a frugal build (nothing wrong with that). Just to clairify, when I say frugal, I'm talking DIY'ing as much as possible, picking up deals on used/near new parts, etc. I think you could do the same with a 1915cc T1 (69x94) that would perform similarly for about the same $$$ too.
My opinion anyways.. I'm looking forward to messing with my T4. Something different/new for me. _________________ Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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Motor7710 Samba Member
Joined: October 31, 2010 Posts: 134 Location: Bakersfield CA
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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My 2.0 Porsche engine install is not as Bling, Bling as the other installs but it's running really cool in 100deg plus weather.
I used the CSP kit at half price compared to the DMT Kit. If your curious. yes... you have to adjust here and there
to make it fit right.
I Know it needs a wash but it's a daily driver! _________________ If it stopped dripping oil you’re probably out of oil! |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:45 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Which brings us back to the Porsche 64, supposed to be the first Porsche
Most of the parts a VW. Engine, seats, instruments, headlights
We are talking 1932 ( I think ).
So if it has all the VW labels is it a VW??? The badge on hood I guess don't matter.
OPRN------- the TYPE 3 you are right 65 hp. I left it out , sorry. I had several.
Note: the T-3 was the first Electronic Fuel Injected Car for the masses!!!!
That hp made it possible for the first fully automatic VW the Type 3. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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Wreck Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014 Posts: 1211 Location: Brisbane
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Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:17 am Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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I took it that all Ray was trying to say was that the 2lt 914 was the only engine not assembled by VW , not sure if the heads have a VW logo or not .
Interesting topic in itself is when does the engine stop being a VW flat four .
say Pauter and Autocraft being just another derivative of an A/C flat four . My take is when the stock cooling tins can no longer be fitted without major modification .
Very nice Oxyboxer a couple of posts ago . |
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jpaull Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005 Posts: 3456 Location: Paradise, Ca
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:46 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
The 2.0L engine .....914 specific....was the only one that was a Porsche only version of the engine. Different pistons, heads, sheet metal, intake system....and in Europe....a different cam. So yes....technically....if you have a 2.0L Porsche 914 engine....you DO have a Porsche engine.
. Ray |
Ray, Technically, If the 2.0 in the 914 is really a Porsche engine, why does it have the VW logo to the right of every engine number on all 2.0's?
Next, if you ignore the VW logo, what do you do with it? Grind it off to hide the evidence?
When I baited people earlier with the "is it Porsche or VW", I didn't expect you would actually bite. You of all people ought to know better. Have some pride in VW's man and just give VW credit for it. Type 4, be it in a 411,412, bus, 914 or whatever is 100% Volkswagen Produced. If your blind to that little symbol showing who manufactured it, you should see the similarities in all type 4 blocks and know they are all Volkswagen.
If the Type 4 crowd didn't have people acting snooty calling their VW engines Porsche engines, it would be much more appealing to build one. They really do have great potential. |
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flat4olsen Samba Member
Joined: February 20, 2014 Posts: 339 Location: Denmark, Europe
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Trowing another stick in the fire.... Another option would be the type 5 engine, the WBX. They can be converted to air cooling with a bit of machine Work.
You get the look of a type 1 engine, but with the stronger WBX crank shaft (VW did WBX with 112 HK stock), a screw on oil filter, factory sand seal, 5 bolt flywheel, aluminium case etc.
Done right, its almost impossible to tell the difference between a type 1 and a type 5 "oxyboxer".
_________________ Type 1 1968, Lotosweiss. 2109 oxyboxer engine
Early Bay 1970, Montana Red. Under construction |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Vee Dub Nut wrote: |
Ehh.. I disagree.
There is a HUGE spectrum between stock and full on race. I don't have any desire to build a full on race engine, but I also have little desire to drive around a low powered stock engine too. Somewhere in the middle of that spectrum is MY ideal point. But the cost versus HP for the T1 and T4 across that scale between stock and wild are pretty disproportionate. Not arguing that the T4 isn't a better design, and certainly not considering expected lifespan either. Just looking at initial build cost to get XXhp.
Example: I had a VERY nice 2276 T1 stroker in my '67 that I built several years ago (Autolena case, CB crank and rods, k8 cam, AA forged 94s, Tims STGII heads, 48IDFs, A1 exhaust, etc, etc). It easily should have been in that 165hp to 175hp range, and was a great driver engine. It certainly WASN'T cheap, but if I were to go and try and build a 2270 T4 to that same power level, cost would very likely be 50% more. One of the BIGGEST reasons would be the premium cost of cooling, exhaust, and cylinder heads for the T4. |
I am going to disagree with you!
To me a 2276/170hp type I engine is a pretty radical upgrade! That's a 43% increase in displacement and a 283% increase in HP!
I built a mild type 4 for my Buggy, 1911, Webers, Web cam, crank fired ignition, estimated at 95 - 100 hp for about $3000 CDN. That would be about $2190 US dollars. How much HP would I get for that price on a type 1 rebuild?
I would be lucky to get a stock rebuild at 60 hp on a type 1 for that price! Now factor in that this engine will likely outlast me... how do you get better value than that? |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Glenn wrote: |
oprn wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Wreck wrote: |
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " . |
I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.
I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH. |
Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference? |
The 912 engine was an evolution of the 356 engine.
The 9176 912E was a 914/T4 put in a stripped down 911.
1966 912 engine
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Thanks, I am not up on my Porsche air cooled history so much and didn't realize there was a difference between the 912 and the 912E. |
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oprn Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016 Posts: 12632 Location: Western Canada
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Don't forget the lowly type 3 when quoting HP figures for the VW. The dual carb type 3 was factory rated at 66 Hp and when they upgraded it to EFI it was advertised at 65 HP. When they put that same DP 1600 in the Bug, Bus and KG with a single carb it was rated at 60 HP. Those ratings were before automotive industry came out with the new funky system of HP ratings to try and fool the insurance industry.
We keep talking HP here but what about comparing torque. Torque is what really counts to move your car down the road in a real life driving enviroment. How do the stock torque ratings compare between the type 1 and type 4? |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Vee Dub Nut Samba Member
Joined: April 25, 2004 Posts: 1183 Location: Dallas, GA
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
I also keep wondering....not beating on anyone.....if you are NOT racing (thats a different deal).....how you can get hung up in "cost per HP" calculations. You are in the wrong hobby if you are looking at it that way and you are not racing. Ray |
Ehh.. I disagree.
There is a HUGE spectrum between stock and full on race. I don't have any desire to build a full on race engine, but I also have little desire to drive around a low powered stock engine too. Somewhere in the middle of that spectrum is MY ideal point. But the cost versus HP for the T1 and T4 across that scale between stock and wild are pretty disproportionate. Not arguing that the T4 isn't a better design, and certainly not considering expected lifespan either. Just looking at initial build cost to get XXhp.
Example: I had a VERY nice 2276 T1 stroker in my '67 that I built several years ago (Autolena case, CB crank and rods, k8 cam, AA forged 94s, Tims STGII heads, 48IDFs, A1 exhaust, etc, etc). It easily should have been in that 165hp to 175hp range, and was a great driver engine. It certainly WASN'T cheap, but if I were to go and try and build a 2270 T4 to that same power level, cost would very likely be 50% more. One of the BIGGEST reasons would be the premium cost of cooling, exhaust, and cylinder heads for the T4.
All that said, I think my current Bus 2L will eventually be transformed into a 2056 for my 67. I think that's the hot ticket for hp vs cost in the T4, and being able to take advantage of the inherent improvements in the T4 design.
Just my opinion anyways... _________________ Fightin' Texas Aggie Class of 2006
67 Beetle (TBD)
74 Transporter (EJ25 Swapped) - Build Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0
See all my VW pics on Instagram @ vee_dub_nut |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6932 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Wouldn’t the T1 technically be a Porsche engine since it was designed by Porsche and his team of engineers? _________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Glenn wrote: |
oprn wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Wreck wrote: |
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " . |
I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.
I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH. |
Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference? |
The 912 engine was an evolution of the 356 engine.
The 9176 912E was a 914/T4 put in a stripped down 911.
1966 912 engine
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The owner needs to buy the big bore cast 1720's. No harm no foul on a 912. Shouldn't be a part of this conversation though _________________ Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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LivinInnaVWBus Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2013 Posts: 968
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Last edited by LivinInnaVWBus on Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:34 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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To make is simple, THe 914 was to be called a VW in the U.S and a Porsche with the 6 cylinder in Europe.
Well the it was only a verbal agreement and the head of VW died. The new guy said both engine the 4 and the 6 in the U.S will be under the Porsche name.
The T-4 came out in 1968 in the 914 later in 73 it went into buses.
So is it a Porsche or is it a VW. Is the Rabbit a VW or an AUDI
Is the Toyota BRZ a Subaru or a Toyota
Is the Toyota Supra A Toyota or a BMW
Is the Porsche 912e with a T-4 engine a VW or a Porsche
The 1.7 914 had 80 hp 20 more HP the the most powerful T-1
The 1.8 914 had 84 hp
The 2.0 914 had 100 hp
A fact most guys don't know is the 914-6 was only 2.0 and had only 109 hp
the 914 was almost as fast except on top end.
The 914-6 in one year won 11 out of 12 races, and that one year came in 2nd.
Soooooooo, What engine do you want in your bug does it really matter if it is a Porsche or a VW - it is the HP ya want.
My engine I bought at Manhattan Porsche in NYC - Unused Training engine.
I took the Porsche Emblem off my crashed 914 and put it on my engine.
Porsche sold it as a porsche. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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Mikedrevguy Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2008 Posts: 2233 Location: Medford, OR
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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I’ve had several T4/Porsche 914 motors fall into my lap.
I’ve 2 2L and an 1.8L and a shell to build up. I’ve a pair of 2L pair of 3bolt heads (1 rebuilt) and a single 3bolt head. Plus, I’ve a line on components for. 2800.
Would I be foolish to not make use of the resources I’ve been given? _________________ 74 1303 (RevBug): plan for German Look
76 914 with 2260
79 VW Iltis
69 Bwajaja
"The wise speak because they have something to say; while the foolish speak because they have to say something." Plato
Illigitimi non-Carborundum!! |
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Glenn Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001 Posts: 76761 Location: Sneaking up behind you
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:33 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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oprn wrote: |
Glenn wrote: |
Wreck wrote: |
I really don't know why people want to make people think their engine is a Porsche . I much prefer the look on a face when you've smoked them at a set of lights and they ask if it's got a Porsche engine and the reply is "It's just an old VW engine " . |
I tell them why would I want to pay 4 times as much for 1/2 the horse power.
I'm pricing a rebuild of a 912 engine. Pistons and cylinders are $600 per.... OUCH. |
Wait a minute - I thought the 912 engine was the same as the 914, 411, 412 and the Bus. Why the price difference? |
The 912 engine was an evolution of the 356 engine.
The 9176 912E was a 914/T4 put in a stripped down 911.
1966 912 engine
_________________ Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Type 4 engine vs Upgraded Type 1 |
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Actually.....technically.....its a VW engine. As noted...it came in the VW 411 first. But it is also the exact same engine to the last part number....as the type 4 engines that NEXT went into the Porsche 914 ( in 1.7L and 1.8L displacements). The only differences are sheet metal and exhaust manifolds.
The 2.0L engine .....914 specific....was the only one that was a Porsche only version of the engine. Different pistons, heads, sheet metal, intake system....and in Europe....a different cam. So yes....technically....if you have a 2.0L Porsche 914 engine....you DO have a Porsche engine.
And....on which factory floor its made has little difference. Its like saying the Ford "Cologne" V6 that went into more brands than Ford....makes those cars either Ford's or German built.
And.....the type 4 was NOT a bus engine. It was LATER made into a bus engine. The versions in the bus....whether 1.7L, 1.8L or 2.0L.....were only the same as 411, 412 and 914 Porsche.....in the overall case castings. 1.7 and 1.8 head castings, crank and rod forgings....were the same. Pistons, cams, induction, ignition, tuning...were a good deal different.
Though the bus engines are "detuned"....they are made the way they need to be for a 4000 lb low geared loaf.
But opt for half hp?....stock at least....about the best that type 1s put out was what....58hp? Maybe 62 hp?....and you could overheat them with extended 65 mph driving in hot climates?....and they typically need a valve job at 50-70k....and have a "best running" service life before a refurb (not a total rebuild).....of 80-100k?
The type 4 is really just the type 1.....that finally got all of the improvements VW learned from building what.....15 million vehicles between about 1949 and 1966 when type 4 hit the drawing boards (it came out in the 411 in 1968).
But.....it has no need for "hoover mods". They are built in. It already has ratio rockers from the factory (1.3:1). Larger oil cooler with dedicated air supply, larger oil galleys, larger crank webs in the case, 40% more head cooling fins, full flow oil filter, crank fed fan....no belts, larger displacement across the board, they rarely need align bore due to better case alloy, no case cracking issues.
All of them came with alternator. All of them came with either twin carbs or fuel injection.
So why would you want one?....well....in type 4 cars....not so much buses....these are typically 150,000 mile engines. No half life valve job needed. Of course all of this dependent on how well you care for it. All day everyday high speed highway in hot weather....no problem. Better low end torque than any of the STOCK type 1 motors....and generally better heating even without gas furnace. And roughly 1.75x tbe hp of the basic bug out of the box.
In the 411/412 and 914...
In the injected 1.7L....82hp
In the injected 1.8L (smog) 76hp....what a detuned waste...because
In the Euro 412 1.8 with twin carbs.....about 85
A 1.8L with proper compression and ignition with stock injection....about 90hp
914 2.0 with injection...same exact injsction with same exact parts as 1.7L except injectors.....95hp.
Euro version with only a cam change and +0.4 compression ratio change....an honest 100hp.
So.....having some versions of a type 4 engine in your car....and calling it a Porsche engine....if its at least Porsche spec.....I have little problem with. Having a beat out 1.8 bus motor in your bug and calling it a Porsche engine.....I have an issue with.
I also keep wondering....not beating on anyone.....if you are NOT racing (thats a different deal).....how you can get hung up in "cost per HP" calculations. You are in the wrong hobby if you are looking at it that way and you are not racing. Ray |
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