Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler?
Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
cjsuner
Samba Member


Joined: January 04, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Bay area CA
cjsuner is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:53 pm    Post subject: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

Hello Guys,

Well just like the title suggests, I have a '71 convertible super beetle, and when the top is down, and I'm on the freeway buzzing along for more that 15-20 minutes, my bug me dipstick starts to make a fuss that it is getting pretty hot back there.

I'm thinking that it is probably time for an external oil cooler, but i'm a little bit at a loss for which one I should go with, just a lot of options out there. my engine set up is a 2110 with 40 idf webers. All my tins are in place, and seals as well. Using 10w-30 oil currently, incase anybody asks.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I recently tried the tennis all trick, and it maybe extended my "range" by about 5 minutes without me starting to get a little nervous.
No i don't have a actual oil temp gauge.


Any ideas on what oil coolers and such I should use for my Vert would be appreciated! I am getting tired not being able to drive very far with the top down.

Best
_________________
71' super vert.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Clatter
Samba Member


Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 4192
Location: Santa Cruz
Clatter is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

Oil coolers don't cool heads.

Maybe time to try and get more air into the compartment?
Remove the front tin, or make up a scoop?
_________________
Bus Motor Build
Fastback Build

What's That Noise??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12570
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
john@aircooled.net is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

close the open hole in the rear tin, that and the wide open preheat riser holes are
killing you. You are trying to cool the engine with hot air, doesn't work very well.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 30978
Location: Nor Cal
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

I see the ground thru the big hole where I think pre-heat used to be. You may also be pulling in hot exhaust air thru that. So maybe what Clatter said about a scoop, and close up that hole.

edit: John and I were posting at the same time. You also should do like he suggests and close up the manifold heat openings in the tin. There is also ground showing on both sides of the engine. I don't know if that is normal on a bug or not but on a bus you want all air pulled in from above, not from under the car.
_________________
Godspeed to all who undertake a journey in a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

It isn't our fault you bought a 50-year old toy you can't afford. None of us can afford it really. Even Steve Jobs had to sell his bus to make his financial life work.

1971 (sold)
1977
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Glenn Premium Member
Mr. 010


Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 66467
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Glenn is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

cjsuner wrote:
No i don't have a actual oil temp gauge.

Best


Get this, it only takes a few minutes to install. Then you'll know if you are worried over nothing.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1196002

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Cast Iron and Aluminum distributors rebuilt since 2000.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Alstrup
Samba Member


Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 3849
Location: Videbaek Denmark
Alstrup is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

He already has one of those. But they really arent worth much unless they are calibrated. They are supposed to start warning around 210 F. But I see them "all over the place" Many start warning as low as 195 and a few on the spot and another few at 220ish.
That said, hot weather, in a convertible, with the top down, is a challenge. Like said, first thing to do is to block that hole in the rear tin. Second you can drill 4-5 2" holes behind the license plate, and use a couple of extensions on the bolts so the licence plate sits 3/4" further out. Then you increase the air supply to the engine compartment and can keep the lid closed. It will work better than the tennisball trick, but most likely wohnt cure it completely. But then you know the engine gets a decent amount of air.
I see you are using an SVDA distributor. Thgat is well, but IDFs usually do not give a proper signal for the vacum can. Have you checked that the can actually pulls the ignition back properly ?
210F is not alarmingly warm. 220+ and I would start slowing down.
If you do a lot of longer freeway rides I would agree with you that a thermostatic controlled external cooler is a good thing, because it gives you more room to use the power you have.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12570
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
john@aircooled.net is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

OP is missing the fresh air hose seals too, air leaks around the hoses where they go through the rear tin.
_________________
It's just advice, do whatever you want with it!

Please do NOT send me Private Messages through the Samba PM System (I will not see them). Send me an e-mail to john at aircooled dot net

"Like" our Facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/vwpartsaircoolednet
and get a 5% off code for use on one order for VW Parts ON OUR PARTS STORE WEBSITE, vwparts.aircooled.net
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Cusser
Samba Member


Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 23289
Location: Hot Arizona
Cusser is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

Does your engine have a doghouse cooler/fan shroud like a 1971 did originally??? I can't tell from your photo.

I ran stock 1600cc DP engine in my 1971 Super Convertible from its purchase in 1976 until I removed that engine and installed my just-sitting 1835cc DP engine about 2006. I say stock but it did have a 30/31 PICT carburetor and a vintage German 009 distributor, and an aftermarket fuel pump. The 1600cc engine had been out exactly once when I replaced the front oil seal and installed a new clutch disc. I never had any overheating issue with this. In 1978 I installed a 2-vent engine lid to replace the existing dented engine lid, so I installed lid standoffs at that time, and had it painted by Maaco.

Yes, it will run a little hotter with the top down.

I find with my 1835cc engine now in it (with the shroud-mounted oil cooler I've used since 1976 on this engine), that I experience hotter oil temperatures (VDO gauge) if I drive it over 75 mph on the Interstate, and sooner with the top down.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2005 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cjsuner
Samba Member


Joined: January 04, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Bay area CA
cjsuner is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
close the open hole in the rear tin, that and the wide open preheat riser holes are
killing you. You are trying to cool the engine with hot air, doesn't work very well.


Will do, and I will also see about getting the fresh air hoses holes their proper seals. The heat riser holes are actually blocked off, but you just can't see it in this picture.

Alstrup wrote:
I see you are using an SVDA distributor. Thgat is well, but IDFs usually do not give a proper signal for the vacum can. Have you checked that the can actually pulls the ignition back properly ?
How do I check that the carb is giving enough?

Cusser wrote:
Does your engine have a doghouse cooler/fan shroud like a 1971 did originally??? I can't tell from your photo.
Yup, it has the dog house oil cooler, with new seals all around.

Thank you for the current suggestions guys! Keep them coming, especially if you have any ideas about external oil coolers.
_________________
71' super vert.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Frank Bassman
Samba Member


Joined: July 01, 2012
Posts: 784
Location: Miami
Frank Bassman is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

What is your jetting and vents like? Convertibles can be finicky, but if you're a bit off it will aggravate the issue in any bug. On a stock engine bug depending on the small details, a 127 vs a 130 main can make a giant difference and not hurt mpg. Just something else to consider.

-Frank
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MURZI
Samba Member


Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 4998
Location: Madisonville, La
MURZI is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

Frank Bassman wrote:
What is your jetting and vents like? Convertibles can be finicky, but if you're a bit off it will aggravate the issue in any bug. On a stock engine bug depending on the small details, a 127 vs a 130 main can make a giant difference and not hurt mpg. Just something else to consider.

-Frank


I'm with Frank... I would bet your jetting is way off. What are they? Idle/main/airs?
_________________
62 vert
2276
Tims welded heads
45 Dells
A1 sidewinder
Fk44 cam
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
YDBD
Samba Member


Joined: February 25, 2017
Posts: 571
Location: Bavaria, Germany
YDBD is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

cjsuner wrote:
Hello Guys,

All my tins are in place, and seals as well.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



The picture shows otherwise. The dipstick is right above the hole in the rear engine tin, right above the exhaust and the fan is pulling hot air through it.
The rear apron looks like it's been replaced as well-is it sealed where it should be welded shut?

What is your louver status on your rear deck lid? Are there louvers? (may have been swapped out with a standard lid over the years) Are there rain gutters inside? Could be stuffed with leaves or rat nest...
_________________
'56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
gt1953
Samba Member


Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 12406
Location: White Mountains Arizona
gt1953 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:50 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

yep close up all of the holes in the sheet metal. Actually get matching proper sheet metal. Then fab up one of these for the rear engine cover. Using this on my vehicle lowered my oil temps and I have reason to believe that the head temp is low also.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
68 type 1
72 type 1
73 type 1
72 Squareback
59 Euro bug, 62, 63, 67, 69 type ones 68 & 69 type two, 68 Ghia all sold
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cjsuner
Samba Member


Joined: January 04, 2013
Posts: 302
Location: Bay area CA
cjsuner is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

[quote="YDBD"]
cjsuner wrote:
Hello Guys,

The picture shows otherwise. The dipstick is right above the hole in the rear engine tin, right above the exhaust and the fan is pulling hot air through it.
The rear apron looks like it's been replaced as well-is it sealed where it should be welded shut?

What is your louver status on your rear deck lid? Are there louvers? (may have been swapped out with a standard lid over the years) Are there rain gutters inside? Could be stuffed with leaves or rat nest...


As I mentioned above, I will get on that hole (but to my point, the tin is in place :p ) the rear apron is removable, which is where there is both a cut on each side, and it looks a bit different.

The decklid is the correct late model vert decklid, with 4 columns of louvers. No rain tray or anything like that to speak of.

@gt, I like the look of that decklid prop, I'll look into fabbing one up.
_________________
71' super vert.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AlteWagen
Troll


Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 7705

AlteWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:48 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

The best thing I did for my early vert when running a larger than stock engine was to remove the front engine tin completely. I extended the oil cooler exit and wrapped the header tubes to reduce the amount of heat that could get pulled into the fan.

I first tried drilling a bunch of 1/2 in holes, then cut it in half and left the dog house side. The half started to rattle so removed it completely. Did the same on my early bus and kept the temps down in the desert.

Only down side is the engine gets pretty dirty if you do a lot of dirt roads.

Dont mess around, get a CHT and OT gauge otherwise you are just guessing
_________________
Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
jason
Samba Member


Joined: August 07, 2002
Posts: 3123
Location: Garage
jason is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

Setrab cool the best from what Ive heard.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
AlteWagen
Troll


Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 7705

AlteWagen is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

If there is not enough air to cool the oil, there is not enough air to cool the heads.


Im kinda worried about my vert, the decklid still has the stock welded rain guards and the 2.2L will need a lot more than a wheezy 36r.

Yo Jason, what are your plans for keeping your big build cool?
_________________
Grapes of Wrath $200 Engine Rebuild
Official Dual Carb Thread
Cylinder Head Quick Reference Sheet
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Facebook Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Davada66
Samba Member


Joined: July 07, 2017
Posts: 42

Davada66 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:54 am    Post subject: Re: Convertible cooling issues: Time for external oil cooler? Reply with quote

those carbs may not be providing enough fuel for that size motor, you probably are running lean, change the idle jets to a larger size and the main jets see if that helps with the temperature. Opening the deck lid really doesn't help with air intake the engine compartment was designed to create a vacuum so the fan draws in the air through the vent holes, you should have a large oil sump under the engine I have a 3 quart sump on my 2084cc but I am using 48idf's on my engine, plus I have a oil filter and a 78vane oil radiator with manual fan. My oil temp stays around 185 to 200 depending on the engine load conditions.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Performance/Engines/Transmissions All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB