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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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 Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:29 pm Post subject: multiple issues |
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Now i'm really stumped.
I need a carb guy and a timing guy to answer me some questions.
Carb guys, I have twin 34's. They worked fine ish until the car died. Long story short it wasn't the carbs that caused the issue. Had the carbs gone through and set up and bushed. Got them back and the things just dump the fuel down the intakes. I have the mixture screws turned all the way in and it still runs black. I did discover that when this guy reassembled the carbs he may have put the rod back into the wrong hole on the accelerator pump. After much futsing I got them into the closer of the two holes, and it helped a little, or so it seems. But it still runs like shit. It smokes, and loads up and you can smell raw fuel when revving it up. Since they worked fine before I have to assume they will run fine again, but idkf about carbs other than the basics. What could a guy do when reassembling these to cause them to run so terribly rich and how do i ficks it? (i know I misspelled Ficks but my ecks is broken after I got my keyboard drunk)
For the timing guy, I have it dialed in at about 34* btdc 3k rpm. I added a CDI and have since wired around it to take it out of this equation. How do I pinpoint what my engine "likes" for timing with an uh oh 9 that may or may not be as shot as the rest of the 50 y/o vw parts?
I do have a pertronicks and a pertronicks 2 coil on it. Valves are set for .06 ice cold. I can see the timing marks advancing when I rev the engine So I don't think I have a busted spring or anything. Is there anything in the ignition system that could cause an incomplete burn that would make it run stupid rich? New cap, new wires, new plugs, new rotor, bosh, belden, ngk and bosh in that order. plugs are set at .025. It doesn't miss, but it did backfire pretty good when I stuck in the clutch to downshift.
Car ran fine until it didn't. it started cutting out real bad and then it didn't go. put a new fuel filter in it and watched it slowly thaw after winter. Spring rolls around and i get the engine out and carbs off, send them off to be done. Got them back and car still runs like shit. Turns out it was the dizzy cap the whole time, $9.00 part screwed me bad. W/e, carb guy had the rods in the wrong hole, or so it seems, in the accelerator pump. Wonder what else isn't right. Dude has a reputation locally as being very good so I don't want to run him down on here, but dammit, I am not satisfied. Just not sure what would cause it to run so stupid rich at 3300' elevation.
Thanks in advance.
1641 dp, stock mostly, 1.25:1 ratio rockers, twin 34's, ignition as mentioned above, 4:1 exhaust w/quiet pack single if it matters
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Pruneman99
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Joined: February 22, 2012
Posts: 5013
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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How are you delivering fuel to the carbs? What's the pressure? I could be a case of overwhelming the needle valves and just drowning the carbs.
Oh, and I'd back off the timing to 30, + or - 2. I wouldn't go last 32 unless I had semi-hemi heads. |
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YDBD
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Joined: February 25, 2017
Posts: 891
Location: Bavaria, Germany
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| Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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sounds like the float in the carbs is not shutting of the fuel and it's just flowing through the main-or he forgot to put something back in.
Baby Dell 34s? Get the Dellorto tech book from CB performance.
Just missed you, I was in Missoula two weeks ago.
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:17 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Bob Brugge wrote: |
Now i'm really stumped.
I need a carb guy and a timing guy to answer me some questions.
Carb guys, I have twin 34's. They worked fine ish until the car died. Long story short it wasn't the carbs that caused the issue. Had the carbs gone through and set up and bushed. Got them back and the things just dump the fuel down the intakes. I have the mixture screws turned all the way in and it still runs black. I did discover that when this guy reassembled the carbs he may have put the rod back into the wrong hole on the accelerator pump. After much futsing I got them into the closer of the two holes, and it helped a little, or so it seems. But it still runs like shit. It smokes, and loads up and you can smell raw fuel when revving it up. Since they worked fine before I have to assume they will run fine again, but idkf about carbs other than the basics. What could a guy do when reassembling these to cause them to run so terribly rich and how do i ficks it? (i know I misspelled Ficks but my ecks is broken after I got my keyboard drunk)
For the timing guy, I have it dialed in at about 34* btdc 3k rpm. I added a CDI and have since wired around it to take it out of this equation. How do I pinpoint what my engine "likes" for timing with an uh oh 9 that may or may not be as shot as the rest of the 50 y/o vw parts?
I do have a pertronicks and a pertronicks 2 coil on it. Valves are set for .06 ice cold. I can see the timing marks advancing when I rev the engine So I don't think I have a busted spring or anything. Is there anything in the ignition system that could cause an incomplete burn that would make it run stupid rich? New cap, new wires, new plugs, new rotor, bosh, belden, ngk and bosh in that order. plugs are set at .025. It doesn't miss, but it did backfire pretty good when I stuck in the clutch to downshift.
Car ran fine until it didn't. it started cutting out real bad and then it didn't go. put a new fuel filter in it and watched it slowly thaw after winter. Spring rolls around and i get the engine out and carbs off, send them off to be done. Got them back and car still runs like shit. Turns out it was the dizzy cap the whole time, $9.00 part screwed me bad. W/e, carb guy had the rods in the wrong hole, or so it seems, in the accelerator pump. Wonder what else isn't right. Dude has a reputation locally as being very good so I don't want to run him down on here, but dammit, I am not satisfied. Just not sure what would cause it to run so stupid rich at 3300' elevation.
Thanks in advance.
1641 dp, stock mostly, 1.25:1 ratio rockers, twin 34's, ignition as mentioned above, 4:1 exhaust w/quiet pack single if it matters |
First, you need to set the timing correctly before messing with anything else. You should have it set at a MAX of 30 degrees total advance for your set up. I personally would set it at 27 degrees total advance. Next, do a compression and leak down test. You said the valves are all good so once you know the timing, compression and leak down are good, then you can dive into the carbs problem.
I personally hate dual 34 ICT's as I believe they are a waste of money for what you get so I am not the right guy to give any advice on how to fix or adjust them. BUT I know your other engine settings must be correct before you start playing with the carbs.
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Cylinder Head Reference Sheet |
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
How are you delivering fuel to the carbs? What's the pressure? I could be a case of overwhelming the needle valves and just drowning the carbs.
Oh, and I'd back off the timing to 30, + or - 2. I wouldn't go last 32 unless I had semi-hemi heads. |
Fuel delivery is with stock pump. Worked fine with my worn out 30/31. Worked fine before I had carbs gone through.
Reset timing to 28*, still smokes. Messing with it just now I noticed I get a much crisper response from the left carb than I do the right. Seems that would indicate that is where the issue is. Is that as straight forward as it seems?
Edit, the cylinders have 135lbs each. Haven't done a leak down test as I don't know really how, but I do know the compression test damn near killed me. could barely get the gizmo in the front two holes even with the carbs off.
So back to my question, assuming fuel delivery is right and timing is right, what does the rich condition on the one side indicate? I still have the mixture screws turned all the way in. And I have the idle screws all the way out. I will see if I can attach pictures of my linkage.
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Last edited by Bob Brugge on Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:37 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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Here are some pics of my linkage.
You may see some monkeyed up wiring, I wired around my cdi bocks to make sure that wasn't the issue.
Let me know if you see anything screwy
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Teeroy 
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Joined: April 20, 2003
Posts: 3685
Location: Eastern WA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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Too high fuel pressure or a bad/poorly adjusted float can cause the rich problem. Poorly synced carb linkage can cause run problems
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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Took the right side carb off and took the top off trying to see what is what. IDK what any of these things are can someone please elaborate?
What is this? is it attached to the accelerator pump How does one verify which hole the rod goes to on the accelerator pump?
What jet is this? it is marked 176 I am at 3300'. Should it be bigger or smaller?
What jets are these and how does one figure out what size they are? I see no markings on them Whats the other hole do?
What are the different holes and what are they for? there are two brass bungs? somethings in the cover. They match up with two of these holes. What are they for and what do they do?
Thanks in advance. I am trying to make sure I have the right jet sizes and the float set at the right level, but idk how to measure it.
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YDBD
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Joined: February 25, 2017
Posts: 891
Location: Bavaria, Germany
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| Posted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:49 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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Bob do a Gallery Search-so much is on thesamba!
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| YDBD wrote: |
Bob do a Gallery Search-so much is on thesamba! |
So much for simple...
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
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Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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OK, here is what I did.
First I researched plastic float settings. 3.6 mm closed and 12.1 mm open.
A quarter is 1.75 mm, so I taped two together, turned the carb top upside down and set the float so the quarters just slide underneath. Then I took a 12 mm nut and adjusted the float so that when it is all the way open the nut falls out easily but the float is just touching the nut.
Is this going to fly? My only other concern is that the gasket has a slight wow to it so it crowds the float about half the thickness of the gasket.
I have no idea how a pro would do it. I only have one usable hand so I have to be inventive when it comes to this stuff.
What say you guys?
Edit: The floats look like they are not square with the gasket. One side is a fuzz higher than the other. The low side is set at the 2 quarter mark. The high side is a fuzz higher, but just a fuzz. How does one get the float square and does it matter a hell of a lot?
Have to put it back together to see what it is doing...
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Bob Brugge
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Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:40 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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bump
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Teeroy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:29 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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Have you checked fuel pressure yet?
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:00 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Teeroy wrote: |
| Have you checked fuel pressure yet? |
No, but I am thinking that might be my neckst move. What I don't understand is how a mechanical pump would produce too much pressure? It wasn't too high with my worn out 30/31 and it ran fine before the dizzy cap went south. So what would cause my fuel pressure to raise?
note. I know I misspelled neckst. My ecks on my keyboard died.
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Pruneman99
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Joined: February 22, 2012
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Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Bob Brugge wrote: |
| Teeroy wrote: |
| Have you checked fuel pressure yet? |
No, but I am thinking that might be my neckst move. What I don't understand is how a mechanical pump would produce too much pressure? It wasn't too high with my worn out 30/31 and it ran fine before the dizzy cap went south. So what would cause my fuel pressure to raise?
note. I know I misspelled neckst. My ecks on my keyboard died. |
You just had the carbs rebuilt. That mean new needle and seats probably got installed. They might not be as tolerant to high fuel pressure as the old ones.
I asked you what your pressure was 10 days ago. You really need to start checking the easy stuff first. |
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Teeroy
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:52 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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A stock pump can easily make too much preasure, and as said some types of carbs tolerate more preasure than others. So your pump probably is the same as before unless you changed the fiber block or amount of gaskets
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Bob Brugge
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Joined: April 09, 2015
Posts: 721
Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:55 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
| Bob Brugge wrote: |
| Teeroy wrote: |
| Have you checked fuel pressure yet? |
No, but I am thinking that might be my neckst move. What I don't understand is how a mechanical pump would produce too much pressure? It wasn't too high with my worn out 30/31 and it ran fine before the dizzy cap went south. So what would cause my fuel pressure to raise?
note. I know I misspelled neckst. My ecks on my keyboard died. |
You just had the carbs rebuilt. That mean new needle and seats probably got installed. They might not be as tolerant to high fuel pressure as the old ones.
I asked you what your pressure was 10 days ago. You really need to start checking the easy stuff first. |
I did not have the carbs rebuilt. I had them gone through. Same needle and seat. I had them bushed.
So 'splain to me how the fuel pressure could change with the same stuff as it had before? And it is only easy stuff if you have the tools.
| Bob Brugge wrote: |
Had the carbs gone through and set up and bushed. |
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Pruneman99
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:28 am Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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Gone through? Rebuilt? I'm not sure I understand the difference.
All the symptoms indicate you are flooding through your carbs. The first thing to check is fuel pressure and the needle and seat.
Maybe just call the guy that went through your carbs and ask their opinion. |
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Bob Brugge
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Location: Missoula, MT
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Pruneman99 wrote: |
Gone through? Rebuilt? I'm not sure I understand the difference.
All the symptoms indicate you are flooding through your carbs. The first thing to check is fuel pressure and the needle and seat.
Maybe just call the guy that went through your carbs and ask their opinion. |
Gone through as in checked for junkus on the inside. Bought the carbs new maybe 1500 miles ago. Didn't have them cleaned as someone I used to trust said to slap 'em on. Was hoping the issue was crud in the carbs, it wasn't. Yes, definitely too much gas.
The guy that went through them and bushed them has been here 3 times trying to get them right. He says he doesn't know why they would be so rich. Not sure I want him touching them anymore either.
i did change the hole on the accelerator pump that the rod goes through as I thought it might be getting too big of a shot. Now I am not sure.
Which hole should the rod be attached to on the accelerator pump?
Thanks in advance
Will get a fuel pressure test gauge and report back the findings.
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Pruneman99
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:41 pm Post subject: Re: multiple issues |
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| Harbor freight has a fuel pressure tester for 13.99 that works fine for low psi tests like these. It is a vacuum tester as well. You don't need the one that's 65 bucks and tests high psi for fuel injection. |
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