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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:54 pm Post subject: '59 Karmann Ghia fever |
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New to the site ... and to the car. Thinking about succumbing to my Karmann Ghia fever and would appreciate any insight regarding a claim the current owner makes regarding the KG he is selling:
“Frame-off restoration 2009. Nose, floor pans, and engine compartment all rust-free. Paint is excellent with some small scratches but NO DENTS. 6 Small rust bubbles (largest is the size of a pea) on rocker panels but upon discussion with VW Body shop/mechanic, this is contained and easily repairable.”
Even my limited acquaintance with the Karmann Ghia leads me to suspect that the rust bubbles alluded to may not be so easily repairable. Might it in fact be easily contained or are my suspicions well-founded?
Thanks in advance for sharing your knowledge! |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32630 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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djkeev wrote: |
As a general rule, when you see a rust body on a Ghia's Rocker Panel...... damage is well underway.
The rickers are a complex assembly of multiple panels all draining diwn to the point of a "V".
These units interior panels rust first and then migrate to the exterior paint.
Be very cautious, it isn't an easy or cheap repair.
Dave |
Thanks. Confirms my worst fears. Does nothing to allay the fever, though. So, its at least cut out the bad, weld in the good, and a new paint job?
Michael
Michael |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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It’s never as easy as “just cut out the bad”. Once you begin that process, you will find more & when you do, you’re at the point of no return unless you abandon it.
Take your fingernails & tap on the rockers, do they sound like metal or does it sound like you’re tapping on a Bayliner? Just a few rust bubbles means that an earlier repair was just to hide a much worse problem, or that the metal has rusted through from the back side & either way, that paint is the only thing remaining sorta solid.
How much are they asking for your muse? If you know that it needs extensive rust repair but it’s a driver & they want $2,500, you can overlook some of the ills. If it needs all the above but they’re asking $20,000, then it’s another story. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:23 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
It’s never as easy as “just cut out the bad”. Once you begin that process, you will find more & when you do, you’re at the point of no return unless you abandon it.
Take your fingernails & tap on the rockers, do they sound like metal or does it sound like you’re tapping on a Bayliner? Just a few rust bubbles means that an earlier repair was just to hide a much worse problem, or that the metal has rusted through from the back side & either way, that paint is the only thing remaining sorta solid.
How much are they asking for your muse? If you know that it needs extensive rust repair but it’s a driver & they want $2,500, you can overlook some of the ills. If it needs all the above but they’re asking $20,000, then it’s another story. |
Your advice is like a dose of quinine. Mine my be the shortest membership on Samba to date. They are indeed asking $20K+: https://www.classiccarguy.com/details_new.asp?id=3497 |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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It could be worse, you could have already bought it & then come here for us to point out all of it’s pitfalls & realized that you’d just been taken.
She definitely looks great, but I wouldn’t want to pay that for it knowing that it might take that much more to make it right. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:53 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
It could be worse, you could have already bought it & then come here for us to point out all of it’s pitfalls & realized that you’d just been taken.
She definitely looks great, but I wouldn’t want to pay that for it knowing that it might take that much more to make it right. |
Yes, being acutely aware of my shortcomings, I tend to seek sound advice where I can find it. Thanks for offering yours! Automobiles are solely an aesthetic experience for me so you can see why I am drawn to this one. With my skill set, I really have no business even thinking about assuming caretakership of a 50+ year old vehicle. |
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Braukuche Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004 Posts: 11005
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Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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That hideous interior alone should scare you off. What is this? 1992? _________________ Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:32 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Braukuche wrote: |
That hideous interior alone should scare you off. What is this? 1992? |
Nope, that came from a Bayliner too.
For what it's worth. the pans appear to be in great shape, but I doubt that the body has ever been separated from it. I would expect that someone would have done lots of cleaning & repainting of the pan if they had it off & that looks like it's never been touched. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:43 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
Braukuche wrote: |
That hideous interior alone should scare you off. What is this? 1992? |
Nope, that came from a Bayliner too.
For what it's worth. the pans appear to be in great shape, but I doubt that the body has ever been separated from it. I would expect that someone would have done lots of cleaning & repainting of the pan if they had it off & that looks like it's never been touched. |
Attempting to follow the homily “buy the best you can afford” to get my foot in the door. Looks pretty clean and well cared for, if a bit on the mariner side, and inching it toward 1963 seemed worthwhile. Looking for the shadow of doubt here: are there any circumstance where the bubbles could indeed not be a deal breaker? |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:04 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Get better pictures of the lower 1/3 of the car. First off, from the pics in the ad, I do not see the rear torsion bar access covers. The absence of these usually sets off all sorts of alarms screaming that the car has been covered in Bondo. That shiny paint is probably covering all sorts of nastiness underneath, ESPECIALLY since rust is already bubbling back through.
If you truly like the car, pay for someone that knows Karmann Ghias to inspect it & pick it apart. If you are comfortable with taking it, with whatever flaws it has, offer the seller $5,000-$7,000 less than what they're asking & enjoy it as a driver. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
Get better pictures of the lower 1/3 of the car. First off, from the pics in the ad, I do not see the rear torsion bar access covers. The absence of these usually sets off all sorts of alarms screaming that the car has been covered in Bondo. That shiny paint is probably covering all sorts of nastiness underneath, ESPECIALLY since rust is already bubbling back through.
If you truly like the car, pay for someone that knows Karmann Ghias to inspect it & pick it apart. If you are comfortable with taking it, with whatever flaws it has, offer the seller $5,000-$7,000 less than what they're asking & enjoy it as a driver. |
It is going to be inspected Monday and an extensive report forwarded to me. I asked for photos of the areas you mentioned and will post them. Thanks for the hand-holding and sage advice! |
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Evil_Fiz Samba Member
Joined: May 06, 2011 Posts: 1049 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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I'm not trying to go against the current with my suggestion but I feel it is worth mentioning. To dovetail with TDCTDI's comment about hiring a pro to inspect it, you can get/borrow a bore scope camera and take a look inside the rocker and heater channels via the three access holes in each rear wheel well. My Ghia had rust bubbles on the rockers but on closer internal inspection with a bore scope I found the damage is localized to the outer rocker skin (in odd locations) and the internal rust is mostly superficial. I still need to replace some metal but it is more cosmetic than structural. You are wise to have asked for advice before exceeding you limitations. There are many nice Ghias available. Keep looking and asking for feedback, the right one will find you soon enough.
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Emil _________________ “…It's not just about what's interesting. It's also about what's helpful, and it's helpful even if it helps just one other guy working on a Ghia.”
kiwighia68
See my build on TheSamba at:
The K_R_A_K_E_N_N : a 70 Ghia Convertible reinterpreted |
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Era Vulgaris Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2012 Posts: 1678 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:42 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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That car has been for sale off and on for a looooong time. I think I've been through 2 or 3 cars since the first time I saw it listed for sale.
I concur with what others have said about rust, and quick bodge "restorations". It's also worth noting that the engine lid is from a '69 or later car because it has the cutout for the rain tray.
And the freeway flier transmissions are generally marketed to people who don't understand that air cooled engines are meant to rev high to stay cool. Running a .82 4th gear is a great way to overheat your engine because the cooling fan won't be moving fast enough to push enough air to cool the engine. _________________ Currently own:
66 Karmann Ghia, L390 Gulf Blue, under construction, here: www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=760505&highlight=
99 Mazda MX-5 10AE, Sapphire Blue Mica, 6 speed, LSD
Previously owned:
98 Porsche Boxster, silver, 2.5L -- 67 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1500sp -- 98 BMW Z3, Atlanta Blue Metallic, 2.8L I6 -- 75 Porsche 914, Laguna Blue, 2270cc -- 72 Porsche 914, Signal Orange, 1.7 FI -- 74 Karmann Ghia, Black, 1600dp -- 74 Triumph TR6 with O.D., sapphire blue |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Evil_Fiz wrote: |
I'm not trying to go against the current with my suggestion but I feel it is worth mentioning. To dovetail with TDCTDI's comment about hiring a pro to inspect it, you can get/borrow a bore scope camera and take a look inside the rocker and heater channels via the three access holes in each rear wheel well. My Ghia had rust bubbles on the rockers but on closer internal inspection with a bore scope I found the damage is localized to the outer rocker skin (in odd locations) and the internal rust is mostly superficial. I still need to replace some metal but it is more cosmetic than structural. You are wise to have asked for advice before exceeding you limitations. There are many nice Ghias available. Keep looking and asking for feedback, the right one will find you soon enough.
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Emil |
Good to hear other possibilities. Thanks for the guidance and bit of hope. Adding to the urgency is a quickly aging TTS which at the moment is a near 1-for-1 trade for this car. |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Era Vulgaris wrote: |
That car has been for sale off and on for a looooong time. I think I've been through 2 or 3 cars since the first time I saw it listed for sale.
I concur with what others have said about rust, and quick bodge "restorations". It's also worth noting that the engine lid is from a '69 or later car because it has the cutout for the rain tray.
And the freeway flier transmissions are generally marketed to people who don't understand that air cooled engines are meant to rev high to stay cool. Running a .82 4th gear is a great way to overheat your engine because the cooling fan won't be moving fast enough to push enough air to cool the engine. |
Very interesting information. Thanks. |
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iboughtrustandbondo Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2019 Posts: 62 Location: NJ
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:09 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
It could be worse, you could have already bought it & then come here for us to point out all of it’s pitfalls & realized that you’d just been taken. |
Must be referring to me...lol |
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Trylon Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019 Posts: 4853 Location: Connecticut
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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I still don’t see spring plate access covers & the ill fitting headlight trim rings scream bondo bucket. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12858 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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iboughtrustandbondo wrote: |
Must be referring to me...lol |
Nope, but yours is a great example.
Unfortunately, far too many people experience the same issues that you have. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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