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KGCoupe
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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 Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| Trylon wrote: |
| Braukuche wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
What’s taken me down this route so early is an offer by someone who will pay for new door panels in trade for the ones on the car. Seems like a win-win but I have to make some decisions quickly. |
This should give you an idea of the value of what you already have vs what may be available. |
A new set of TMI 70s puffy panels for his originals. Or a set of incorrectly new stitched vs heat seamed diamond pattern late lowlight panels for his originals. Such a deal! |
Now we are finally getting to the point!
So, back to my question— better to
1) stick with the slightly incorrect but vintage or
2) trade for correct but not vintage? |
Naturally each individual occurance would need to be evaluated on its own merits/faults.
However, I believe the general consenous is that "vintage" will always trump "not vintage" ... at least with regard to quality.
That's why many here will tell you to never throw out any original part that you may end up replacing.
Often those old original parts can be repaired or rebuilt, and will outperfom and outlast the vast majority of new replacement parts available today.
If I may add my comment to the fray, considering what little I do know about your new Ghia's soon-to-be-former owner, I'd feel very safe in saying that whatever is currently on the car is already the best available option save for finding the exact original piece in great condition. |
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KGCoupe
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| Trylon wrote: |
My goodness— how do you even put holes for the hardware in that art?!
Need a salivating emoji... |
You'll find this one if you click on the "View more Emoticons" link located beneath the 24 Emoticon choices listed to the left of the reply text box ...
Honestly, though, I haven't figured out yet if that's supposed to be a salivating emoji or a licking emoji. |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Can’t tell but do they have the diamond pattern on the light inserts? Is someone making that stuff now days?
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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So this seems to be the source of confusion regarding the year of my Ghia-to-be:
What does the number 1959 mean on this tag? |
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sputnick60
Samba Moderator
Joined: July 22, 2007
Posts: 3916
Location: In Molinya Orbit
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| sputnick60 wrote: |
baujahr = Construction year or build year
Nicholas |
Huh! That’s odd as the VIN seems to put it in Dec 58.
So it’s the model year?
Thanks! |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:19 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| KGCoupe wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
| Braukuche wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
What’s taken me down this route so early is an offer by someone who will pay for new door panels in trade for the ones on the car. Seems like a win-win but I have to make some decisions quickly. |
This should give you an idea of the value of what you already have vs what may be available. |
A new set of TMI 70s puffy panels for his originals. Or a set of incorrectly new stitched vs heat seamed diamond pattern late lowlight panels for his originals. Such a deal! |
Now we are finally getting to the point!
So, back to my question— better to
1) stick with the slightly incorrect but vintage or
2) trade for correct but not vintage? |
Naturally each individual occurance would need to be evaluated on its own merits/faults.
However, I believe the general consenous is that "vintage" will always trump "not vintage" ... at least with regard to quality.
That's why many here will tell you to never throw out any original part that you may end up replacing.
Often those old original parts can be repaired or rebuilt, and will outperfom and outlast the vast majority of new replacement parts available today.
If I may add my comment to the fray, considering what little I do know about your new Ghia's soon-to-be-former owner, I'd feel very safe in saying that whatever is currently on the car is already the best available option save for finding the exact original piece in great condition. |
Thanks for your insight! |
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KGCoupe
Samba Member
Joined: July 01, 2005
Posts: 3580
Location: Putting the "ill" and "annoy" in Illinois
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| Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| John Moxon wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
Ok, so fever’s burning hot and trying to nurse it along with Karmann Ghia-ana from the internet.
I have received the VIN for my Ghia (asked not to share it until I possess the car) and checked this site:
http://www.kglowlightregistry.com/
If VIN’s are contiguous, it seems that mine was built in December ‘58.
My questions are— Are VIN’s contiguous? Is this a reasonable conclusion to draw? Is the care still considered a ‘59?
Thanks for your interest— if you still have it!
Michael |
OK yes Vins ARE contiguous and your conclusion is entirely reasonable.
Now we get to the contentious bit. It can, in my and many other's opinion, be reasonably argued a Dec '58 is a 1958 Karmann Ghia. Why contentious? Some insist, like Beetle Model Years they ran August to July so an August '58 would be a '59 Model Karmann Ghia.
The argument against this is that Karmann didn't introduce "Model Years" until 1964. Before that specification changes were fed into the KG production line according to Vin numbers...i.e. implemented during a production run and not saved up for them to all be implemented in the August at the beginning of the new "Model Year"
So in my opinion you have a 1958 Karmann Ghia. |
If you look at the Karmann Ghia VIN / Chassis Numbers Chart found under the Technical Tab in the header here in The Samba, August of each year is specifically identified as the start of the new Karmann Ghia model year.
I realize that you did say that fact is a bone of contention with some Karmann Ghia aficionados, and that prior to 1964 any changes/improvements to the cars were "fed into the KG production line according to Vin numbers...i.e. implemented during a production run and not saved up for them to all be implemented in the August at the beginning of the new "Model Year"."
However, you did also state (or at least implied) that by the time the Karmann Ghia went into production Model Years for the Beetle began in August of the previous calendar year.
Now if I understand this whole process correctly, the floorpans supplied to Karmann by Volkswagen were assigned VIN numbers according to the same scheme as, and in sequence with (?), the Beetle floorpans.
If that's true, then a strong argument could be made IMO that regardless of whether or not incremental changes/improvements were being applied to the pre 1964 model year Karmann Ghia bodies "on the fly", the automobile as a whole should still be considered as having model years that echo those of the Beetle (and presumably the other VW models being produced at the time as well).
After all, it is a Volkswagen Karmann Ghia being sold through Volkswagen dealerships, not a Karmann Karmann Ghia being sold through Karmann dealerships.
Just my opinion (that nobody asked for). |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:11 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Interested in any information that can be gleaned from the number of the engine that is being rebuilt and installed in my Ghia-to-be:
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John Moxon 
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13955
Location: Southampton U.K.
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| John Moxon wrote: |
May/June 1960 so in the ballpark.  |
Nice!
On another note— it turns out that the dash pad is an original from 1974. Not sure when it was put on— 74? 80’s restore? Richard’s restore? But in any case it clearly isn’t something that I should simply scrape off. What do you think my chances are in removing it without damage...it seems to be glued on. |
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John Moxon
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13955
Location: Southampton U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| Trylon wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
May/June 1960 so in the ballpark. |
Nice!
On another note— it turns out that the dash pad is an original from 1974. Not sure when it was put on— 74? 80’s restore? Richard’s restore? But in any case it clearly isn’t something that I should simply scrape off. What do you think my chances are in removing it without damage...it seems to be glued on. |
Personally if it's presentable I would leave it on. It is a period accessory and as I've said before it was seen as a useful add-on especially if you had a bright red painted dash that cast a distracting reflection on the lower half of the windshield. That was the reason it became a stock fitment on later Ghias.
_________________
John.
Judson Supercharger Information on The Samba
My 1958 Shorrock Supercharged Karmann Ghia
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:15 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| John Moxon wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
May/June 1960 so in the ballpark. |
Nice!
On another note— it turns out that the dash pad is an original from 1974. Not sure when it was put on— 74? 80’s restore? Richard’s restore? But in any case it clearly isn’t something that I should simply scrape off. What do you think my chances are in removing it without damage...it seems to be glued on. |
Personally if it's presentable I would leave it on. It is a period accessory and as I've said before it was seen as a useful add-on especially if you had a bright red painted dash that cast a distracting reflection on the lower half of the windshield. That was the reason it became a stock fitment on later Ghias. |
So, a 1974 vintage but incorrect dash pad, a 1960 vintage but incorrect door pull, and original seats recovered incorrectly(?) in the 80’s. There seems to be a middle ground being taken here where incorrect vintage beats repro but original is trump. Does that about sum it up? |
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John Moxon
Samba Moderator
Joined: March 07, 2004
Posts: 13955
Location: Southampton U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| Trylon wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
May/June 1960 so in the ballpark. |
Nice!
On another note— it turns out that the dash pad is an original from 1974. Not sure when it was put on— 74? 80’s restore? Richard’s restore? But in any case it clearly isn’t something that I should simply scrape off. What do you think my chances are in removing it without damage...it seems to be glued on. |
Personally if it's presentable I would leave it on. It is a period accessory and as I've said before it was seen as a useful add-on especially if you had a bright red painted dash that cast a distracting reflection on the lower half of the windshield. That was the reason it became a stock fitment on later Ghias. |
So, a 1974 vintage but incorrect dash pad, a 1960 vintage but incorrect door pull, and original seats recovered incorrectly(?) in the 80’s. There seems to be a middle ground being taken here where incorrect vintage beats repro but original is trump. Does that about sum it up? |
Well accessories are often added a various stages throughout the life of a car. Most of us have done it ourselves, a succession of owners add a bit here and there. Most of the owners are not period correct enthusiasts, just taking on another used car as an everyday conveyance.
Fast forward another 40 years and the owners are now either eccentric oddities or enthusiasts who will view the accessories added differently. The eccentric oddity still won't give a damn but the enthusiast will probably think differently.
Now I'm guessing you are an enthusiast. 
_________________
John.
Judson Supercharger Information on The Samba
My 1958 Shorrock Supercharged Karmann Ghia
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| John Moxon wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
| John Moxon wrote: |
May/June 1960 so in the ballpark. |
Nice!
On another note— it turns out that the dash pad is an original from 1974. Not sure when it was put on— 74? 80’s restore? Richard’s restore? But in any case it clearly isn’t something that I should simply scrape off. What do you think my chances are in removing it without damage...it seems to be glued on. |
Personally if it's presentable I would leave it on. It is a period accessory and as I've said before it was seen as a useful add-on especially if you had a bright red painted dash that cast a distracting reflection on the lower half of the windshield. That was the reason it became a stock fitment on later Ghias. |
So, a 1974 vintage but incorrect dash pad, a 1960 vintage but incorrect door pull, and original seats recovered incorrectly(?) in the 80’s. There seems to be a middle ground being taken here where incorrect vintage beats repro but original is trump. Does that about sum it up? |
Well accessories are often added a various stages throughout the life of a car. Most of us have done it ourselves, a succession of owners add a bit here and there. Most of the owners are not period correct enthusiasts, just taking on another used car as an everyday conveyance.
Fast forward another 40 years and the owners are now either eccentric oddities or enthusiasts who will view the accessories added differently. The eccentric oddity still won't give a damn but the enthusiast will probably think differently.
Now I'm guessing you are an enthusiast. |
Yep, an enthusiastic enthusiast! Somehow, I would rather have, for instance, the beautiful, correct Aussie panels than the patinaed, incorrect 1960 panels. ‘Course the ideal is beautiful, vintage, correct panels but what are the chances for that given the dearth of supply and wealth of demand? Even Richard couldn’t supply it on this car. I think I am zeroing in on what I would like— a convincing illusion of a factory fresh 1959 Brilliant Red Karmann Ghia sitting on my driveway. It the next best thrill this side of reality. |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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You keep heading down the full restoration rabbit hole.
That’s why the car didn’t move for such a long time, it’s an in betweener.
It was not cheap enough to be an economical basis for a full correct restoration, yet for the picky buyer it was too incorrect to settle on.
Some of the stuff you could do like replace the incorrect originals with incorrect reproductions or better yet try to hunt down a set of correct nice originals. Other things you propose doing, like tearing off the dash cover, will leave you with likely mismatched paint and then being forced to try to match it.
I tried to find pix of the car but can’t? You should refresh our memories again or point to a link.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
You keep heading down the full restoration rabbit hole.
That’s why the car didn’t move for such a long time, it’s an in betweener.
It was not cheap enough to be an economical basis for a full correct restoration, yet for the picky buyer it was too incorrect to settle on.
Some of the stuff you could do like replace the incorrect originals with incorrect reproductions or better yet try to hunt down a set of correct nice originals. Other things you propose doing, like tearing off the dash cover, will leave you with likely mismatched paint and then being forced to try to match it.
I tried to find pix of the car but can’t? You should refresh our memories again or point to a link. |
I know, what a conundrum. And I am so happy to have it!
Here’s the link:
http://oaklandaircooled.us/share/cars/59_MTKG_coupe/59_KG_coupe.html
I think I may be headed down the restore the interior rabbit hole.
Yeah, the mismatched painted dash concerns me as well. That’s why I asked if they would do it as they painted the dash recently. No go.
Thanks for your continued interest! |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12856
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| Trylon wrote: |
I know, what a conundrum. And I am so happy to have it!
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LITFA
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Trylon
Samba Member
Joined: August 16, 2019
Posts: 4853
Location: Connecticut
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Trylon wrote: |
I know, what a conundrum. And I am so happy to have it!
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LITFA |
Thank you for your well-reasoned, eloquently-stated opinion, TD!
No. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12856
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Karmann Ghia fever |
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Here’s an idea, you can only spend as much money on it as how many miles you put on it. That means you have to drive it at least 20,000 miles before you can buy anything for it.  Your wife will love that idea.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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