| Author |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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 Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:48 pm Post subject: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Hey guys, Just picked up this little guy today.
This would be my very first type 3, after owning 4 Type 1 Beetles over the past 6 years.
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Lets have a little history of the car.
Sat in a storage unit since 2008, It was found as a single owner car at an auction (for the storage unit) A local transmission shop purchased it, and rebuilt the transmission.
They could not get the Fuel Injection system to work so they cleaned the gas tank and put on some Empi dual 34 EPC carbs.
Seems like the seats, carpet, upholstery are all OG.
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Right now, it runs like absolute crap however still manages to drive and shift fine. Due to the carbs saying "not usable for vacuum advance distributors" I assume I should swap out the factory FI distributor for a 009?
I got the carbs to sync up however it tends to idle at 1,200-1,300 rpms, then drops down to a "really rough feeling" 850-900 RPMs when in Drive or reverse (at idle)
Any thoughts, comments, and things to look out for would be really appreciated.
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:20 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
Hey guys, Just picked up this little guy today.
This would be my very first type 3, after owning 4 Type 1 Beetles over the past 6 years.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Lets have a little history of the car.
Sat in a storage unit since 2008, It was found as a single owner car at an auction (for the storage unit) A local transmission shop purchased it, and rebuilt the transmission.
They could not get the Fuel Injection system to work so they cleaned the gas tank and put on some Empi dual 34 EPC carbs.
Seems like the seats, carpet, upholstery are all OG.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Right now, it runs like absolute crap however still manages to drive and shift fine. Due to the carbs saying "not usable for vacuum advance distributors" I assume I should swap out the factory FI distributor for a 009?
I got the carbs to sync up however it tends to idle at 1,200-1,300 rpms, then drops down to a "really rough feeling" 850-900 RPMs when in Drive or reverse (at idle)
Any thoughts, comments, and things to look out for would be really appreciated. |
No 009.
Let's get the fuel injection and a correct exhaust on that puppy. I can help you with parts.
You'll be glad you did.
_________________
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Tram wrote: |
No 009.
Let's get the fuel injection and a correct exhaust on that puppy. I can help you with parts.
You'll be glad you did. |
PM sent, I'd be down. I love a stock system and do hate that muffler.
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:00 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
No 009.
Let's get the fuel injection and a correct exhaust on that puppy. I can help you with parts.
You'll be glad you did. |
PM sent, I'd be down. I love a stock system and do hate that muffler. |
I have to agree 100% with Tram. The AT cars seem to run/work better with FI than carbs. I'm not saying they can't work with carbs, but the seem to perform better with injection.
Also, that is the absolute worst muffler you can put on a type 3, especially a Squareback. They reduce HP, and let fumes into the car thru the rear hatch seals. Just a heads up.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
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| Tram wrote: |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6595
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Very nice. I'm surprised you found something in such great condition around here.
The previous owner removed the automatic and the fuel injection? I would ask them if they saved the parts so you can put that car back the way it was intended.
_________________
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Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
I have to agree 100% with Tram. The AT cars seem to run/work better with FI than carbs. I'm not saying they can't work with carbs, but the seem to perform better with injection.
Also, that is the absolute worst muffler you can put on a type 3, especially a Squareback. They reduce HP, and let fumes into the car thru the rear hatch seals. Just a heads up. |
Oh, I plan on bringing this back to fully stock including a stock muffler. I'm not a fan of the EMPI muffler.
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| heimlich wrote: |
Very nice. I'm surprised you found something in such great condition around here.
The previous owner removed the automatic and the fuel injection? I would ask them if they saved the parts so you can put that car back the way it was intended. |
The previous owner only removed the fuel injection system, shoved most of it in a box.
The wire harness on the FI computer is pretty brittle/broken and the PO decided to add crimp connectors.
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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posidude
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2019
Posts: 27
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Good looking sb for sure! |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6595
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
The previous owner only removed the fuel injection system, shoved most of it in a box.
The wire harness on the FI computer is pretty brittle/broken and the PO decided to add crimp connectors.
|
You are quite lucky he didn't throw it all away. I've heard so many good things about the fuel injected systems and how they run so well compared to carburation.
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Another thing is the kickdown switch on the stock FI throttle body (IAD). If yours is missing broken you will want to start hunting down a replacement of some kind. I'm pretty sure your carb setup lacked one, so It should not downshift when you mashed the throttle, making it seem even more sluggish. Lack of vacuum timing is no good, either! With most of the parts there you are in good shape to set it back to stock FI. The wiring may be an issue. New harnesses are pricey ($4-500 from a Porsche guy), but it is possible to make one up yourself, or at least repair the original with stock factory crimp style connectors. It will be worth the effort or expense to address this, because so many "FI failures" come down to wires, connectors, hoses... simple stuff you can fix, and NOT the FI components themselves. I sense the prior owner didn't heed this advice and finally gave up on it, going to carbs.
Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
| Another thing is the lockdown switch on the stock FI throttle body (IAD). If yours is missing broken you will want to start hunting down a replacement of some kind. I'm pretty sure your carb setup lacked one, so It should not downshift when you mashed the throttle, making it seem even more sluggish. Lack of vacuum timing is no good, either! With most of the parts there you are in good shape to set it back to stock FI. The wiring may be an issue. New harnesses are pricey ($4-500 from a Porsche guy), but it is possible to make one up yourself, or at least repair the original with stock factory crimp style connectors. It will be worth the effort or expense to address this, because so many "FI failures" come down to wires, connectors, hoses... simple stuff you can fix, and NOT the FI components themselves. I sense the prior owner didn't heed this advice and finally gave up on it, going to carbs. |
The kickdown switch is still present, however the bracket is custom made for the carbs. (probably not in the correct position) You can barely see it in the below photo (silver metal bracket with holes drilled into it next to the oil cooler.
I think I am going to make a peg board and re-wire the entire stock FI harness I have. The wires in the engine bay side are brittle, but as it gets closer to the FI computer everything starts to look clean.
I do own proper crimp tools and prefer stock correct terminals.
I am curious, coming from Type 1s, we always had issues with the throttle shaft wear causing a vacuum leak. Is this an issue with the throttle shaft/plate on the intake for Type 3 stock manifolds? If so does anyone re-bush them?
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:37 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Not likely to be much of a problem on the T3. For one thing, there is little wear because the throttle spring and cable pull 180 degrees apart, and with a short lever arm from that pivot to the throttle plate pivot, limiting side forces. Also, an air leak there is just an addition to the "calibrated air leak" that is your idle adjustment screw. A drop of oil every oil change is more than enough to prevent wear.
Last edited by KTPhil on Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:44 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Mr.Duncan wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
| Another thing is the lockdown switch on the stock FI throttle body (IAD). If yours is missing broken you will want to start hunting down a replacement of some kind. I'm pretty sure your carb setup lacked one, so It should not downshift when you mashed the throttle, making it seem even more sluggish. Lack of vacuum timing is no good, either! With most of the parts there you are in good shape to set it back to stock FI. The wiring may be an issue. New harnesses are pricey ($4-500 from a Porsche guy), but it is possible to make one up yourself, or at least repair the original with stock factory crimp style connectors. It will be worth the effort or expense to address this, because so many "FI failures" come down to wires, connectors, hoses... simple stuff you can fix, and NOT the FI components themselves. I sense the prior owner didn't heed this advice and finally gave up on it, going to carbs. |
The kickdown switch is still present, however the bracket is custom made for the carbs. (probably not in the correct position) You can barely see it in the below photo (silver metal bracket with holes drilled into it next to the oil cooler.
I think I am going to make a peg board and re-wire the entire stock FI harness I have. The wires in the engine bay side are brittle, but as it gets closer to the FI computer everything starts to look clean.
I do own proper crimp tools and prefer stock correct terminals.
I am curious, coming from Type 1s, we always had issues with the throttle shaft wear causing a vacuum leak. Is this an issue with the throttle shaft/plate on the intake for Type 3 stock manifolds? If so does anyone re-bush them?
|
As far as I know, I haven't heard of anyone wearing out a throttle body on a type 3 FI set up. Even Keith Park has never mentioned it in all of the 250K miles he put on his type 3 engine over the last 20+ years. He's just switched over to a 2056 T-4 engine in his 71 Squareback, and he's keeping it D-jet FI.
You might want to contact Keith on here (probably find him in the D-jet PhD sticky up top) , and see about getting the correct FI wire ends, as he's got a small supply from AMP (the original mfg er) of them. At the time he got them, the smallest order you could get from them was 1,000 pieces. These are solid brass, rather than tin plated.
If you're lucky, the PO reused the original kick down switch, so you can just re-install it onto the plenum via it's bracket.
You can ask Ray Greenwood about what you'd need to build your own wiring harness, as he's advised several here on doing it. He walked Joe thru doing them, even which wire was best to use, size (diameter) to use, and how to salvage the ECU ends. Joe even started a harness building business a few years ago, but has gotten busy with actual work (he went to college for engineering) that he's kind of stopped building them (not a lot of demand 5 or 6 years ago). It doesn't help that he's moved a couple of times either.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:33 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
As far as I know, I haven't heard of anyone wearing out a throttle body on a type 3 FI set up. Even Keith Park has never mentioned it in all of the 250K miles he put on his type 3 engine over the last 20+ years. He's just switched over to a 2056 T-4 engine in his 71 Squareback, and he's keeping it D-jet FI.
You might want to contact Keith on here (probably find him in the D-jet PhD sticky up top) , and see about getting the correct FI wire ends, as he's got a small supply from AMP (the original mfg er) of them. At the time he got them, the smallest order you could get from them was 1,000 pieces. These are solid brass, rather than tin plated.
If you're lucky, the PO reused the original kick down switch, so you can just re-install it onto the plenum via it's bracket.
You can ask Ray Greenwood about what you'd need to build your own wiring harness, as he's advised several here on doing it. He walked Joe thru doing them, even which wire was best to use, size (diameter) to use, and how to salvage the ECU ends. Joe even started a harness building business a few years ago, but has gotten busy with actual work (he went to college for engineering) that he's kind of stopped building them (not a lot of demand 5 or 6 years ago). It doesn't help that he's moved a couple of times either. |
Thank you Bob, I will be getting a good used Fi harness from Tram.
The OG kick down switch is still on the engine, so I will get to reuse that.
I may in the future rebuild my OG harness as a fun project.
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Started cleaning up the old parts, removing all the PO's fuel hose and worm gear clamps (wrong style)
My favorite thing would be "Not for fuel injection hose" being used.
OG fuel injectors all ready to be sent off to be cleaned and rebuilt.
All injectors measured 2.6 Ohms
Looks like the steering wheel hasn't been removed since it left the factory shown by the paint marks.
I will need a new ground strap.
Sadly, the ONLY rust on this car is inside the trunk, I assume this is the fresh airbox area and rain-water tray from the upper vents? I Will need to cut this out and weld in new metal. Any tips here would be great.
I have ordered the following parts:
Airtex E2000 Fuel pump
New injector seals
New Intake manifold boots (4x)
New fuel pressure regulator
New Air intake seal for the main engine fan (small 2" tear in the OG one)
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle
Last edited by Mr.Duncan on Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34003
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:48 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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There is a thread on that specific rust repair somewhere.
Also, when rebuilding injectors, you can cut off the crimp carefully, and clamp on new stubs. Don't make them too long or they can catch on the protrusion of the side parts of the engine bay. Cit it first along the crimp, then as below, being careful to not nick the pipe inside.
Use proper FI clamps, not worm clamps:
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22413
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Yeah, that rust is common on 71 thru 73's, and is right at the tray for the fresh air box (bolts to that tray). The cause is leaves and dirt filling that area, and not getting cleaned out. Just add water and rust forms from inside and over time you have what you see. Ideally what you want to do is create a removable top for that area, so it can get cleaned every now and then (my friend Dave Hall from England did this to his 71 too). In the short term, you use magnetic heating vent covers to keep the trash out, or something else. I use aluminum duct tape for mine, as I've got a lot of trees around here.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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TX-73
Samba Member
Joined: January 04, 2013
Posts: 1133
Location: Texas
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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Installed a new fan air intake boot from WCM as the old one was torn in various spots.
Also installed fan shroud block off plugs as the heaterboxes are not connected.
Old boot:
New boot:
Block off plugs:
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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Mr.Duncan
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 3542
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Duncan's 1971 Squareback thread |
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| heimlich wrote: |
You are quite lucky he didn't throw it all away. I've heard so many good things about the fuel injected systems and how they run so well compared to carburation. |
I've heard good things too, I once drove a 1979 FI beetle and it was bliss.
I might have to swing by sometime and verify my distributor is in okay shape timing wise on that nice Sun machine you've got. 
_________________
(Owner) www.vintagecarleds.com
Red 1971 Squareback Thread
Red 1966 Beetle Thread
---------------------------------------------------
1971 Green Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Ghia (sold)
1971 Blue Super Beetle (sold)
1966 Java Green Std Beetle (sold)
1971 Red Squareback (sold)
1966 Red Beetle |
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