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70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops...
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overrestored
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

Enunciation is important... the type 64 was a no sale at 17 million

See the video:

https://youtu.be/_LRE7kXcUvA


Link

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:31 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

overrestored wrote:
Enunciation is important... the type 64 was a no sale at 17 million

See the video:

https://youtu.be/_LRE7kXcUvA


Link


So did they have a 70 million bid and a no sale????
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overrestored
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

Quote:
So did they have a 70 million bid and a no sale????


The original bids were all chandelier bids... there were no actual bidders bidding. The auctioneer started the chandelier bids at 13 million... but it sounded like he said 30 million... so the guy manning the keyboard typed in 30 million. Then the auctioneer kept raising the chandelier bids in what sounded like 40 million, 50 million, 60, million , 70 million.... so the guy typing out the numbers for the screen typed those numbers. But what the auctioneer was actually saying was 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 million. (His accent and lack of enunciation of the “teens” was the issue) So by the time they figured out the error, all the audience was flipping out... and most of the serious money, if there was any real money, was probably foriegn... so they were thinking they had translation errors probably. When the chandelier bidding was corrected to 17 million and the room had no real bidders... the sale failed. That’s how I read it.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

Thats a major fubar. And embarrassing for the auction house.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

overrestored wrote:
The original bids were all chandelier bids... there were no actual bidders bidding.


Since I didn't know what that was, here you go, a couple summarys

1. The practice of Chandelier Bidding, otherwise known as Buy-In bidding, Rafter bidding, Off-the-wall bidding, Consecutive bidding, Vendor bidding, or Consignor bidding, is the practice where "the auctioneer pretends to take a bid from the room in order to encourage bidding, create the appearance of demand, or to push bidding closer to the reserve price". In other words, it’s a fake bid.

2. This is the practice, especially by high-end art auctioneers, of raising false bids at crucial times in the bidding in order to create the appearance of greater demand or to extend bidding momentum for a work on offer. To call out these nonexistent bids auctioneers might fix their gaze at a point in the auction room that is difficult for the audience to pin down. The practice is frowned upon in the industry. In the United States, chandelier bidding is not illegal. In fact, an auctioneer may bid up the price of an item to the reserve price, which is a threshold below which the consignor may refuse to sell the item. However, the auction house is required to disclose this information.

Shady IMHO
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wheel607
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:53 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
overrestored wrote:
The original bids were all chandelier bids... there were no actual bidders bidding.


Since I didn't know what that was, here you go, a couple summarys

1. The practice of Chandelier Bidding, otherwise known as Buy-In bidding, Rafter bidding, Off-the-wall bidding, Consecutive bidding, Vendor bidding, or Consignor bidding, is the practice where "the auctioneer pretends to take a bid from the room in order to encourage bidding, create the appearance of demand, or to push bidding closer to the reserve price". In other words, it’s a fake bid.

2. This is the practice, especially by high-end art auctioneers, of raising false bids at crucial times in the bidding in order to create the appearance of greater demand or to extend bidding momentum for a work on offer. To call out these nonexistent bids auctioneers might fix their gaze at a point in the auction room that is difficult for the audience to pin down. The practice is frowned upon in the industry. In the United States, chandelier bidding is not illegal. In fact, an auctioneer may bid up the price of an item to the reserve price, which is a threshold below which the consignor may refuse to sell the item. However, the auction house is required to disclose this information.

Shady IMHO


your last sentence is the most important. I have been an auctioneer in Virginia since 1985 and to have a legal auction in our State, you have to have two qualified bidders. The auction house bidding a reserve is one qualified bidder, but there is no second qualified bidder. If, this was the case, this would come under the heading of full disclosure, which it seems there was not. Major auction houses have been getting away with this for years, especially since most large money isn't even in the house.
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overrestored
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

There may have been a bidder on the phone… or on the internet… bidding against the reserve...who knows. Maybe that is where the 17 million bid came from. At the end (not on my video link) there is an extremely long pause… where the auctioneer appears to be waiting for somebody to make a decision… and you can't tell what is going on… but it seems like there is a telephone conversation going on that they are all waiting for.

I dunno… I you were gonna bid 17 million on something… wouldn't you want to be in the room rather than on the phone. Or… more likely… if you have 100 billion… you're too famous to appear in public at an auction so you have your minions call you from the auction floor I guess.

We'll prob never know.
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overrestored
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:20 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

here's the complete auction… at the end you can see the auctioneer waiting for the one potential bidder in the room… to bid against the auction houses' chandelier bid of 17 million… but that bidder is evidently on the phone with somebody and not listening or responding to the auctioneer. In the end that bidder does not bid… leaving the auction house with the chandelier high bid which is under the 20 million dollar reserve… so the car is a no sale.

Link

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
overrestored wrote:
The original bids were all chandelier bids... there were no actual bidders bidding.


Since I didn't know what that was, here you go, a couple summarys

1. The practice of Chandelier Bidding, otherwise known as Buy-In bidding, Rafter bidding, Off-the-wall bidding, Consecutive bidding, Vendor bidding, or Consignor bidding, is the practice where "the auctioneer pretends to take a bid from the room in order to encourage bidding, create the appearance of demand, or to push bidding closer to the reserve price". In other words, it’s a fake bid.

2. This is the practice, especially by high-end art auctioneers, of raising false bids at crucial times in the bidding in order to create the appearance of greater demand or to extend bidding momentum for a work on offer. To call out these nonexistent bids auctioneers might fix their gaze at a point in the auction room that is difficult for the audience to pin down. The practice is frowned upon in the industry. In the United States, chandelier bidding is not illegal. In fact, an auctioneer may bid up the price of an item to the reserve price, which is a threshold below which the consignor may refuse to sell the item. However, the auction house is required to disclose this information.

Shady IMHO


Had this happen to me years ago, at a famous Scottsdale Auction company, the difference they said "sold". I went to sign the paperwork and they said I bid on my own car.....I told them I did not and have video of the entire sale.
Fortunately I had a retired attorney and judge that recommend I stand my ground, who essentially asserted the auction company made the sale, they now own the vehicle. After several "conversations" with the owner of the auction company he knew I would prevail if he did not find a solution, decided to rerun the vehicle during prime time Saturday. The vehicle sold for $3000 less than the first time thru.....I didn't sign off on the sale until the auction company made up the difference.
During the conversations with the owner of the auction company I had many other consignors tell me they had similar experiences over the years.....so yes this is common practice in the auction industry.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the type 64... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

Another post with a link from another member
Bilyjax50 wrote:
During Car Month in Monterey this year this happened to the rarest of the rare model 64 the ex Otto Mathe owned Berlin to Rome race car --- It was also mentioned that it might be a fake ??? freaking scandelous --- watch the video clip of the auction below --- never seen anything like it before

https://mashable.com/article/auction-confusion-porsche-type-64/


(This post will be deleted if he reposts here)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

that is abysmal auctioneering for sotheby's - a total cock-up Shocked
this from forbes-
Those in attendance said the amounts of the bid were unclear because of the auctioneer's accent. Maarten ten Holder's native language is Dutch. CNBC reported, "He started the bidding at $13 million. But those running the giant display behind the scenes thought he said "$30 million. The next bid was $14 million, but the screen showed $40 million"—and so on and so on. Until ten Holder realized the trouble and put the brakes on the proceedings when the bid hit $17 million, but the screen showed $70 million. When he announced the error, the crowd's reaction immediately changed from cheers to jeers. There were no more bids, and RM Sotheby's pulled the lot.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

never mind - here's top gear's chris harris driving it

Link

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

Thanks for sharing the video. Chris Harris' excitement was contagious. Great photography of all the little details of it.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

Agree, I enjoyed that video
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:31 am    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

yep, top gear are hard to beat for their production quality - captures the sound and character of this car really well
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: 70 million for the 1939 Type 64 "Porsche" ... err.... Oops... Reply with quote

I was just happy to see it in person.
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