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Dmuldoon
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Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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 Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:17 pm Post subject: Quick upper control arms question |
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On my front trailing arms or control arms one side is stamp r2 on both arms. Is this telling me to put in the right side ? Wish I could say they other says l2 but the paint is gone. Standard early link pin front end. Thanks in advanced
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jsturtlebuggy
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Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Since this appears to be aftermarket trailing arm, it should not matter which side it is placed. Upper arms go top and lower arms with the shock mounts go in bottom.
Now depending on how lower shock mount on trailing arm they could be used on one side. Meaning there may be a left and right.
More pictures of your front suspension may help with your question.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dmuldoon
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 10:18 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Since this appears to be aftermarket trailing arm, it should not matter which side it is placed. Upper arms go top and lower arms with the shock mounts go in bottom.
Now depending on how lower shock mount on trailing arm they could be used on one side. Meaning there may be a left and right.
More pictures of your front suspension may help with your question. |
Thanks for the reply. Here’s some more pictures are requested
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jsturtlebuggy
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Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Looking at the new pictures the trailing arms look like stock ones that someone has reinforced the arms with plate gussets on inner and outside where they slip into the axle beam.
The lower shock mounts are also welded to stock trailing arms and the bolt for shock mount looks to be inline with lower link pin.
The reinforcement on the arms was done for off road racing years ago before aftermarket trailing arms were available.
Nothing wrong with your set up you have, I have no idea why one is market with the R2.
Dusty Mojave may have a better answer.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dmuldoon
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Looking at the new pictures the trailing arms look like stock ones that someone has reinforced the arms with plate gussets on inner and outside where they slip into the axle beam.
The lower shock mounts are also welded to stock trailing arms and the bolt for shock mount looks to be inline with lower link pin.
The reinforcement on the arms was done for off road racing years ago before aftermarket trailing arms were available.
Nothing wrong with your set up you have, I have no idea why one is market with the R2.
Dusty Mojave may have a better answer. |
Thanks now I got another quick question. It seems my front beam bushings lips are to thick if that makes sense. Basically when installed I can not see the dimples in the leafs. Seems I can use no lip and the leafs length will be perfect length. To be honest I didn’t even looks when I removed my old ones but I do believe they were inside the beam with no lip. Post a pic to help
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jsturtlebuggy
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Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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The bushings you have in the beam are Delrin material made by SACO/German Auto.
Usually you have to ream them for trailing arms to fit in them.
You could cut off the ends if needed for arms to set in position for grub screw to fit in detent of leaf packs.
There are beam bushings that come with out the lip if you want to change them, you will be fine with just cutting of lip of the bushings.
I would use a O-ring on arms though as they would work as a seal to keep stuff from getting into bushings.
Is this a widen beam? I can see it looks like a stock beam that has original stock towers cut off, and new longer towers welded on.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dmuldoon
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Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 3:11 am Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
The bushings you have in the beam are Delrin material made by SACO/German Auto.
Usually you have to ream them for trailing arms to fit in them.
You could cut off the ends if needed for arms to set in position for grub screw to fit in detent of leaf packs.
There are beam bushings that come with out the lip if you want to change them, you will be fine with just cutting of lip of the bushings.
I would use a O-ring on arms though as they would work as a seal to keep stuff from getting into bushings.
Is this a widen beam? I can see it looks like a stock beam that has original stock towers cut off, and new longer towers welded on. |
Fudge if I know. Been trying to get this front end finished for a while now. Keep running into issues and half a*s stuff done to it. Making the build not so pleasant. Here’s some seals I found. You saying cut the lip off of the bushing and install these on the beam tube ends to stop junk from going inside?
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jsturtlebuggy
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Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Those seals you posted a link to are for stock king and link pin front end.
They may be to thick to use for your front beam.
The only way to really know is to cut the flange of the Delrin bushings and then slip arms into place and see where grub screw lines up in the arms.
Then you need to measure what the space is between the arms and beam, and see how much it is.
If it a 1/4" or less then I would find a O-ring to fit, if more then a 1/4" then you may have to use the stock one as in your link as there is a taper to them.
Or it could be you will not see any space as the extra metal on the arm may take up the space with out needing any kind of seal.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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dustymojave
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Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Before you go cutting anything. Try wiping the grease off the ends of the torsion leaves. I see that one narrow leaf is sticking out in the one photo. That one needs to be pushed back into place.
I can see some evidence of the dimple on the lower leaf pack and maybe on the upper.
The arms are using smaller screws than stock, and I'm not sure why. Maybe somebody thought that since that what the aftermarket arms use, that it is better. But that's not true. The stock grub screws are bigger and stronger than the aftermarket ones.
Since the leaf packs have the narrow leaves, they are obviously stock leaf packs. So unless the beam has been widened from stock (and I don't think so looking at where the beam clamps are), I can see NO reason the dimples are not there in the right place unless the packs are in upside down.
The add-on shock towers are just like the ones I had on the original beam in my Hi Jumper race buggy back in the 1970s/early 80s as seen in my avatar. Overall, that looks like a nice front end setup. And maybe all of the problem is from people not familiar with what is there.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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dustymojave
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Joined: January 07, 2007
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Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Have the leaf packs been removed? And maybe re-stacked?
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Dmuldoon
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Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| Have the leaf packs been removed? And maybe re-stacked? |
I have removed packs if your saying the torsion leafs. I restacked. It is impossible to set these arms with a (bushing that has a lip) into the beam and line up with the divot holes.I’ve placed arms on without the bushing and they lined up pretty damn well. the grub whole with the divot. I’m unsure but heard maybe it was a needle bearing instead of a bushings. Not sure. There def was a bushing on it when removed because I remember taking out all the junk it it left behind. |
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Dmuldoon
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Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Those seals you posted a link to are for stock king and link pin front end.
They may be to thick to use for your front beam.
The only way to really know is to cut the flange of the Delrin bushings and then slip arms into place and see where grub screw lines up in the arms.
Then you need to measure what the space is between the arms and beam, and see how much it is.
If it a 1/4" or less then I would find a O-ring to fit, if more then a 1/4" then you may have to use the stock one as in your link as there is a taper to them.
Or it could be you will not see any space as the extra metal on the arm may take up the space with out needing any kind of seal. |
I’m wondering if they even had a seal or lip on the bushing. The more I investigate looks like a lot of metal rubbing on the arms. Like the beam end ware into the arm gussets.
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jsturtlebuggy
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Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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That sure looks like metal to metal contact.
Do you have a picture of the whole beam so you can see both sides in it.
I curious to see how complete beam looks. Does it have 2 grub screws in the middle of each beam?
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dmuldoon
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Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
That sure looks like metal to metal contact.
Do you have a picture of the whole beam so you can see both sides in it.
I curious to see how complete beam looks. Does it have 2 grub screws in the middle of each beam? |
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jsturtlebuggy
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Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Ok I can see you have a stock width beam that has taller shock towers added to the stock towers that are cut off just above the upper beam.
The beam looks like an early one that use Micarta bushing (a bakelite type material). Later beams use a needle bearing on the outer ends and the Micarta bushing on the inners. The stock outer beam bushings were pressed in even with the outer edge of the beam.
I think you are going to need to trim the bushings you have so the arms will fit and allow for the grub screws to fit in the dimples in the leaf stacks.
Then you will be able to see if there is clearance between the arms and the ends of the beam.
The steering box is a 1960 and earlier which is what lead me to believe it an early beam.
As for the rubbing of the gussets on the beam there is some flex there in the torsion leafs and that maybe were the rubbing is coming from or if the bushings were worn out then it would allow for arm to move and cause the rubbing.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:22 am Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| Dmuldoon wrote: |
| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Those seals you posted a link to are for stock king and link pin front end.
They may be to thick to use for your front beam.
The only way to really know is to cut the flange of the Delrin bushings and then slip arms into place and see where grub screw lines up in the arms.
Then you need to measure what the space is between the arms and beam, and see how much it is.
If it a 1/4" or less then I would find a O-ring to fit, if more then a 1/4" then you may have to use the stock one as in your link as there is a taper to them.
Or it could be you will not see any space as the extra metal on the arm may take up the space with out needing any kind of seal. |
I’m wondering if they even had a seal or lip on the bushing. The more I investigate looks like a lot of metal rubbing on the arms. Like the beam end ware into the arm gussets.
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OK...Joe is right in all he says. Stock beam with an 8" add-on style tower kit with an unusual extra gusset on the inboard side of the towers. Aside form that added inboard gusset, it's the same setup I put on my beam for my Hi Jumper back in the 1970s as you see it in my avatar.
But I see from that photo above what the entire problem is here.
The gussets on the inboard side of the trailing arms takes up the space that the flange on aftermarket bushings or the stock grease seals normally takes up. I would rather have the steel rubbing on plastic (Delrin or Urethane) or at least on aluminum or bronze than steel to steel. But unless you replace the trailing arms with ones that do not have that inboard gusset, you need to remove the flanges off the ends of the bushings.
Overall, that front end looks pretty well set up and should work well.
The bump stops are Ford Pickup - 1960s vintage. Same as I used on my car back when. But I learned long ago that if used as they are, they will quickly pound out and split. I learned to cut the rubber off at about 5/8" thick from the metal backing plate and then they lasted for years. You can also replace them with urethane bump stops.
If you put lower arms on that still have the stock shock mounts, using those 8" towers with 8" travel shocks, you can get 10" of travel.
_________________
Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
SoCalBajas Member
Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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Dmuldoon
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:23 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| dustymojave wrote: |
| Dmuldoon wrote: |
| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Those seals you posted a link to are for stock king and link pin front end.
They may be to thick to use for your front beam.
The only way to really know is to cut the flange of the Delrin bushings and then slip arms into place and see where grub screw lines up in the arms.
Then you need to measure what the space is between the arms and beam, and see how much it is.
If it a 1/4" or less then I would find a O-ring to fit, if more then a 1/4" then you may have to use the stock one as in your link as there is a taper to them.
Or it could be you will not see any space as the extra metal on the arm may take up the space with out needing any kind of seal. |
I’m wondering if they even had a seal or lip on the bushing. The more I investigate looks like a lot of metal rubbing on the arms. Like the beam end ware into the arm gussets.
|
OK...Joe is right in all he says. Stock beam with an 8" add-on style tower kit with an unusual extra gusset on the inboard side of the towers. Aside form that added inboard gusset, it's the same setup I put on my beam for my Hi Jumper back in the 1970s as you see it in my avatar.
But I see from that photo above what the entire problem is here.
The gussets on the inboard side of the trailing arms takes up the space that the flange on aftermarket bushings or the stock grease seals normally takes up. I would rather have the steel rubbing on plastic (Delrin or Urethane) or at least on aluminum or bronze than steel to steel. But unless you replace the trailing arms with ones that do not have that inboard gusset, you need to remove the flanges off the ends of the bushings.
Overall, that front end looks pretty well set up and should work well.
The bump stops are Ford Pickup - 1960s vintage. Same as I used on my car back when. But I learned long ago that if used as they are, they will quickly pound out and split. I learned to cut the rubber off at about 5/8" thick from the metal backing plate and then they lasted for years. You can also replace them with urethane bump stops.
If you put lower arms on that still have the stock shock mounts, using those 8" towers with 8" travel shocks, you can get 10" of travel. |
That’s what I was thinking the gussets on the arms do no allow arm to go in enough. Now in a pickle on what to do tho. Don’t want to tap the beam. Was thinking of taking off the lip on the bushing. Then installing bushing on arms and welding well tacking Some type of sleeve/washer to the arms at the end of the bushing in order to stop the bushing from creeping in the middle. |
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jsturtlebuggy
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Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:26 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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What I do and many others have done to keep the beam bushings from spinning and moving, it to install set screws to hold them in place.
I use 1/4"-28 set screws. I drill and tap for the 1/4"-28 thread into the beam a couple of inches inward and inline from the zerk fittings.
Some times the zerk fitting are long enough that they can also be used to keep bushing in place.
On a off road race cars I use more than one of the set screws on each bushing
To set them in place I adjust the screw so it touching the arm and then back it off a 1/2 a turn and tighten lock nut to hold in place.
Right now I don't have any pictures of what I done, will have to take one and post it.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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Dmuldoon
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2019
Posts: 34
Location: Huntington Beach ca
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
What I do and many others have done to keep the beam bushings from spinning and moving, it to install set screws to hold them in place.
I use 1/4"-28 set screws. I drill and tap for the 1/4"-28 thread into the beam a couple of inches inward and inline from the zerk fittings.
Some times the zerk fitting are long enough that they can also be used to keep bushing in place.
On a off road race cars I use more than one of the set screws on each bushing
To set them in place I adjust the screw so it touching the arm and then back it off a 1/2 a turn and tighten lock nut to hold in place.
Right now I don't have any pictures of what I done, will have to take one and post it. |
Yeah pics will be awesome |
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jsturtlebuggy
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Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: Quick upper control arms question |
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Here are pictures of where I put set screws in the beam to keep bushings from spinning.
I also installed the zerk fittings on the back side of beam. This was something that was done on the racing beams sold years ago to protect them from getting beat up by rocks.
The set screws are a little angle up so rocks will have less chance of smashing them.
On your setup I would do two set screws to hold them in place.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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