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Fuse box connection
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1974vw412
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:30 am    Post subject: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Hi, need some help understanding how the fuse box connects? I bought the car and the fuse box was hanging by the wires. I believe it might connect to the metal kick panel but not sure how. Does anyone have any pictures?
Thanks, Michael
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:31 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Ok.....take you time on this one. I am also saying that because its raining....my car is outside and covered....and it may be a day before I can get pictures.

But.....BUT.....the fact that the fues block is out of its "slot".....and I will explain that coming up......MEANS SOMETHING.

1. It either simply means It was out because the previous owner was working on something on the fuse block....and this is rarely the only case......or....

2. And this is a problem on virtually EVERY type 4 car I have owned.....the most common reason the fuse block is pulled out.....is because it was getting wet and water was filling up the relays on the bottom of the fuse block.

The water leakage typically comes from one or all of three places:

1. The corners of the windshield seals. As they shrink with age they leak at the cirne4s snd it it drips on and runs down the wires.

2. Spray during driving in the rain.....coming through a rotted out speedometer cable boot under the left front fender......running down the wires.

3. This is less common....but I have seen it enough. If speakers were installed in the kick panels or if they or the heater vent pipes behind them were ever removed.....and the sheet metal screws wereeither replaced or put back in the wrong place.....they can drill through the fender well wall causing a leak.

I will post some pictures of the fuse panel and how it mounts sometime today. Ray
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1974vw412
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. The previous owner did a lot of work to the fuse box, some wires melted and he ran some new wires and jumpers. I had the dash out and started going through everything to make sure it's wired correctly.

Thanks for your help, Michael
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 7:00 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

1974vw412 wrote:
Thanks Ray. The previous owner did a lot of work to the fuse box, some wires melted and he ran some new wires and jumpers. I had the dash out and started going through everything to make sure it's wired correctly.

Thanks for your help, Michael


I have a series of pictures of how the fuse panel comes in and out. Bear with me.....storm last night and cable/internet is down so I will have to wait until I reach the office later this morning to post.

By the way.....please post a picture....or at least list the fuse position numbers where you have melted wires. There are some common problems that can cause this and it may help to tell you what to look at to tell you why they melted..... Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:51 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Ok…to start with……..sorry for the picture quality. Check these things BEFORE you start.

1. You need to remove the triangular parcel tray in front of the fuse panel. It has two screws on the bottom that screw into the sheet metal through the carpet and two on the right side that screw into the pedal cluster.

2. If you have evidence of water under the carpet on the driver’s side, have evidence of water stains on the carpet around the fuse block or have inspected the speedometer cable boot and its cracked, missing or dislodged….or have pulled the relays out of the bottom of the fuse block and noted corrosion on the terminals and/or rust or have any relays that have been damaged by water….DO NOT…put the fuse panel back into its recess in the side panel.

The most common reason why the fuse panel is out and hanging from its wires…is water leakage and relays filling up with water. I have found this issue in 90% of 411 and 412 I have worked on.

Fix the leaks before you re-install the fuse panel in the recess.

3. DISCONNECT THE BATTERY before you start.

4. Check that all of the female terminals on the back of the fuse block are tight by pulling on each one. If they easily remove…use a small set of needle nose pliers to carefully tighten the rolled edges of the female terminal so they grip the male terminal tighter. Like this….

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is a cross section of the terminal above. Squeeze the edges inward and downward gently.

Ok…below is the left end of the fuse panel. It is identical to the right end. Note the three small nubs/blocks in the circle. These go on each side….they straddle…the sheet metal panel opening behind the carpet. The panel slips through these three nubs where the yellow dashed line is.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The reason the battery needs to be disconnected and the terminals need to be tight is that the wires are stiff with age, there is not much slack in the wires….and you need to grasp the fuse panel from underneath…..and simultaneously push it upward under the dash….and start feeding it toward the opening in the sheet metal panel like the red arrows show.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You need to get it up high enough that the blinker relay clears the lower edge of the opening and drops down inside. This takes a little more force than you think it will….which is why the wires need to be tight.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Once the relays clear the opening…you can start feeding it downward…..with the relays angled slightly toward the fender like the arrow shows.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The first thing that is going to happen because you will be paying attention to the left end of the fuse panel closest to you that you can see…is that the right end will seem to go downward first. Notice this and keep it even and level…..AND…..that wire with the red arrow pointing to it will almost always drape around the fuse panel and prevent the right side end from entering the slot. So stop for a minute and drape that wire back over the back of the panel so its not in the way of the three nubs on the right end.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Push the panel downward…making sure the bottom nub on each side goes on the BACK SIDE of the metal panel edges.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Make sure the center or outer nub goes on the front side of the panel on each end….and push downward on the panel level and evenly until it seats.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Note that the two tabs on the bottom of the fuse panel are on the outside of the sheet metal and the steel locking clip has snapped onto the barbed tab.

You are done.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Ray
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

So do I understand this has to be pulled back out to replace any relay?
What a PITA, with small plastic pieces brittle with age....AAAAHHH!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:
So do I understand this has to be pulled back out to replace any relay?
What a PITA, with small plastic pieces brittle with age....AAAAHHH!


Yep....it is a TOTAL pain in the ass.....but the fuse block itself is not really brittle. It nylon and tough as a boot and I have never had an issue.

The biggest risk is not lifting it high enough to clear the relay bases and bending male pins...and yes...I have broken a flasher relay this way before.

I have also pulled loose a few wires whose female terminals are not tight...hence my concern that while its out you check all of them before re-installing.

Its a slick looking install. When its in you just see the nice looking clear plastic fuse cover.

The biggest issue is that behind that panel...which is removable once you pull the carpet away ...there are so many places/ways that water can leak onto the fuse panel with age. In fact...my relays on my first 411 got soaked even at 7 years old and 55k miles.

The on my first 411 problem was that:
A. The speedo cable boot was cracked (a type 3 part #)

B. a few screws had been installed for a pair of not bad Sanyo surface mount speakers (circa 1976) by the previous owner...and they went through the sheet metal and through the fender well wall.

On this 412....there is the classic lower windshield seal corner leakage from shrinkage. You will note in the photos where you can see the flasher relay...that the corners of the plastic relay housing are "nicked"...to allow drainage of any water.
Ray
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KTPhil Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2019 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Sounds like the same leak points the Type 3s have. And those leak right onto its fusebox, too!

Glad to hear they at least used a good plastic.
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1974vw412
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Ray, thanks for the guide. The PO converted to carbs. As I am wiring things up, the fuse box had relays removed, guessing it was because of the conversion. Do you have any recomendation of protective measures so no live wires are present?

Here are a couple pictures of the fuse box, PO put in a blue jumper wire. Still figuring out what its running to. One end goes to the ignition switch

Thanks again, Michael
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun May 05, 2019 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

You need to get a haynes manual with a wiring diagram. Those large wires with jumper have no reason to be like they are.

Also....there are "0" relays that would need to be removed from the fuse panel to go from injection to carburetor. None of the fuel injection relays were in the fuse panel.

The only relays that are in the fuse panel are turn signal/flasher, the door/seat belt buzzer, high beams and on some cars the fog light relay.

There is,no reason those wires should be out of the fuse panel if that is where they came from. Wires that heavy in gauge are either headlamp or starter. I would follow them on the wiring diagram and check both ends with a volt meter and find out what is missing in between.
Ray
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1974vw412
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PostPosted: Sat May 11, 2019 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Hi Ray, I was using the wrong schematics because some things were not making sense. I did order two books and received one that had the correct schematic. I did an internet search for a color copy and found this. I combined the sheets into one file. Everything makes sense now. What i was missing is the large relay in the schematic I was using. This new one has it and now I am rewiring the fuse box like it was when it rolled off the assembly line.

Thanks for your help.
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vwoldbug
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

Ray did the 1974 vw 412 have a seat belt interlock relay . That could be a bypass for the relay . I realize this is an old post
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Fuse box connection Reply with quote

vwoldbug wrote:
Ray did the 1974 vw 412 have a seat belt interlock relay . That could be a bypass for the relay . I realize this is an old post


Yes....but usually...the seat belt interlock relay at least through 1973...was on the floor, drivers side...small square cube relay....if memory serves....where the seat pressure sensor plugged in.

I think some years did have them in the fuse panel though. Ray
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