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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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 Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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I tend to think optimistic, and I know VW has been pretty standoffish (to put it lightly) in the past, but maybe... just maybe this is a good sign?
If I had a spare old Bug or something just sitting around, maybe I'd do a woodgas conversion. Just because it would be neat. Also, if I had lots of spare time.
I don't really have either.
I am totally unopposed to an electric conversion, though. Though my wife is wanting to move a good distance out to the country, so I don't know if it's a great idea just yet.
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
I tend to think optimistic, and I know VW has been pretty standoffish (to put it lightly) in the past, but maybe... just maybe this is a good sign?
If I had a spare old Bug or something just sitting around, maybe I'd do a woodgas conversion. Just because it would be neat. Also, if I had lots of spare time.
I don't really have either.
I am totally unopposed to an electric conversion, though. Though my wife is wanting to move a good distance out to the country, so I don't know if it's a great idea just yet. |
The wood gas conversions were done in the wwii era in europe. they put the gas generator in the front, and thus needed a bulged hood to accommodate it. Very interesting cars. CO2 neutral too.
Bug On!, Split Wood, Not Atoms!
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
| vwwestyman wrote: |
I tend to think optimistic, and I know VW has been pretty standoffish (to put it lightly) in the past, but maybe... just maybe this is a good sign?
If I had a spare old Bug or something just sitting around, maybe I'd do a woodgas conversion. Just because it would be neat. Also, if I had lots of spare time.
I don't really have either.
I am totally unopposed to an electric conversion, though. Though my wife is wanting to move a good distance out to the country, so I don't know if it's a great idea just yet. |
The wood gas conversions were done in the wwii era in europe. they put the gas generator in the front, and thus needed a bulged hood to accommodate it. Very interesting cars. CO2 neutral too.
Bug On!, Split Wood, Not Atoms! |
I remember reading about those.
But I'm pretty sure it was a (albeit short-lived) thing in the 70s, too. It would be fun to just see if you could get it working.
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
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bluebus86
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stuzbot
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Joined: March 30, 2018
Posts: 377
Location: Pining for the Puddles of Yesterday
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:36 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
Electric cars dont offer much if any advantage over a gas fuel car.. range is poor... recharge time long... cost is often higher... operational costs simular. The electric car is not yet as vastly superior over a gasoline car... The 129 mile range is pathetic... probably even less if you add a heater for winter use, a 4000 watt heater on for a two hour drive will use up 20% of the range, and the one hour charge time is crazy slow...
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All the downsides you quote are things that will improve as the technology develops and [where money is involved] also become much cheaper. Just look at the technology we all carry about today on our mobile phones. That didn't even exist 20 years ago.
The same thing is just beginning to happen with electric vehicles. 20 years ago the only EV you'd be likely to see [at least over here in the UK] would be the occasional milk float; top speed 20mph, acceleration outpaced by continental drift, half the back taken up with dozens of lead acid car batteries wired together and range just about enough to make it round the local housing estate and back to the depot.
Compare that with where we are now, with EVs out-accelerating dedicated sports cars, setting top speed records and containing some real cutting edge technology. And, with all the major manufacturers jumping on board, that pace of change is only going to speed up due to the fierce competition that will ensue.
| bluebus86 wrote: |
The only reason to crush or permanently store our Bugs in our life times will be because electric car zealots will outlaw them or tax them out of use. |
I think the taxing into oblvion is inevitable [at least this side of the pond].
I've noticed that, whenever EVs are discussed here on The Samba, most of the resistance to the idea and the "it'll never happen" comments come from the US based members. I don't know what your pollution laws are like out there, as regards motor vehicles. I do notice a lot of mention of California and "smog testing" so I'm assuming the regs vary from state to state and California is the strictest?
But here in Europe, the writing's on the wall for the ICE. There are already many cities where they've outlawed ICE powered vehicles from the city centre or are making it too expensive to use one there. London's LEZ is but one example. I live in Manchester and, a year or two back, our city council were proposing to bring in a similar scheme here. Unfortunately they were naive enough to put it to public vote and the public voted against it. But I'm sure it'll happen eventually. If not for the publicly stated 'green' reasons, for the reason that any such scheme will be a nice earner for the local authorities involved.
So, from the point of view of a Euro-Sambaist, every piece of news I hear about EV conversions of classic vehicles is good news. I feel like there are two converging trajectories here; one is the cost of an electric conversion [which is falling] and the other is the cost of continuing to use an ICE vehicle [which, at least here in Europe, is rising]. At some point those trajectories will cross and it'll actually be cheaper to convert these vehicles than to keep running them as they are.
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vwwestyman
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Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:33 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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https://dailycaller.com/2019/04/24/tesla-carbon-dioxide-mercedes/
I haven't bothered to "fact check" the article or anything, just saw it posted this morning and thought of this thread. I generally trust the person who posted it, though.
Interesting thoughts all around.
I suppose that electric cars can still be effective in reducing things like smog, since the emissions are not in the city. And the idea that it is easier to clean up the emissions at a single source than at the tailpipes of a zillion cars makes some sense to me, as well.
Still, interesting to consider. I don't think this "kills" electric cars as a good step forward for everyday transportation. Just is a technological challenge that can likely be met.
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stuzbot
Samba Member
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Location: Pining for the Puddles of Yesterday
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:35 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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These are the other sides of the argument that rarely get a mention when the 'greeness' of EVs is discussed.
Interesting that the biggest CO2 'culprit' in making an EV is the manufacture of the batteries. I'm assuming seeing as it's Lithium technology, the same as is in our computers and smartphones etc. that the batteries in electric cars are going to have a finite lifespan and [again, as with our phones and laptops, etc] they'll gradually lose charging capacity over the years as they approach their end of life.
So that makes for some interesting calculations. What is the pollution cost per km for an EV, given various possible figures for battery lifespan? Have any figures ever been provided for this? It's something I wonder aobut when people mention buying EVs which are a few years old to use in their DIY conversion projects. Just how long does an EV battery last? With phones and laptops, around 5 years seems to be about the most you'll get out of one before it starts to seriously lose capacity.
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KTPhil 
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Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34021
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:09 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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A political website like that is no place to find a balanced factual presentation, just advocacy.
No links to any of the three studies referenced, so we can't easily fact-check the editorial article.
At least they disclosed the fact that the electrical generation is heavily weighted to coal in Germany, unlike much of the rest of the world, making a generalization about charging pollution incorrect.
Last edited by KTPhil on Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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bluebus86
Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:01 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| stuzbot wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
Electric cars dont offer much if any advantage over a gas fuel car.. range is poor... recharge time long... cost is often higher... operational costs simular. The electric car is not yet as vastly superior over a gasoline car... The 129 mile range is pathetic... probably even less if you add a heater for winter use, a 4000 watt heater on for a two hour drive will use up 20% of the range, and the one hour charge time is crazy slow...
|
All the downsides you quote are things that will improve as the technology develops and [where money is involved] also become much cheaper. Just look at the technology we all carry about today on our mobile phones. That didn't even exist 20 years ago.
The same thing is just beginning to happen with electric vehicles. 20 years ago the only EV you'd be likely to see [at least over here in the UK] would be the occasional milk float; top speed 20mph, acceleration outpaced by continental drift, half the back taken up with dozens of lead acid car batteries wired together and range just about enough to make it round the local housing estate and back to the depot.
Compare that with where we are now, with EVs out-accelerating dedicated sports cars, setting top speed records and containing some real cutting edge technology. And, with all the major manufacturers jumping on board, that pace of change is only going to speed up due to the fierce competition that will ensue.
| bluebus86 wrote: |
The only reason to crush or permanently store our Bugs in our life times will be because electric car zealots will outlaw them or tax them out of use. |
I think the taxing into oblvion is inevitable [at least this side of the pond].
I've noticed that, whenever EVs are discussed here on The Samba, most of the resistance to the idea and the "it'll never happen" comments come from the US based members. I don't know what your pollution laws are like out there, as regards motor vehicles. I do notice a lot of mention of California and "smog testing" so I'm assuming the regs vary from state to state and California is the strictest?
But here in Europe, the writing's on the wall for the ICE. There are already many cities where they've outlawed ICE powered vehicles from the city centre or are making it too expensive to use one there. London's LEZ is but one example. I live in Manchester and, a year or two back, our city council were proposing to bring in a similar scheme here. Unfortunately they were naive enough to put it to public vote and the public voted against it. But I'm sure it'll happen eventually. If not for the publicly stated 'green' reasons, for the reason that any such scheme will be a nice earner for the local authorities involved.
So, from the point of view of a Euro-Sambaist, every piece of news I hear about EV conversions of classic vehicles is good news. I feel like there are two converging trajectories here; one is the cost of an electric conversion [which is falling] and the other is the cost of continuing to use an ICE vehicle [which, at least here in Europe, is rising]. At some point those trajectories will cross and it'll actually be cheaper to convert these vehicles than to keep running them as they are. |
I have yet to read the "it will never happen" comments that you mentioned. Please direct us to them.
For smog control, yes California has the some if not the highest standards for smog control on cars. If only europe had done likewise, youd not have so much pollution.
You mention that the price of electric cars will drop, maybe true, maybe not. but the increased demand for electricity to fuel them will likely cause electric prices to go up, unless of course cheap coal burning plants are ramped up perhaps.
One thing to consider is the price of the materials for electric cars will likely go up as demand increases, that demand by dictate. Electric cars consume a lot of copper, rare earths, and battery materials. some of these materials are already expensive to mine, and produce, and their cost will likely go up if Red China were to clamp down on pollution caused by their production, as Red China is a major source of these materials.
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:14 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
A political website like that is no place to find a balanced factual presentation, just advocacy.
No links to any of the three studied referenced, so we can't easily fact-check the editorial article.
At least they disclosed the fact that the electrical generation is heavily weighted to coal in Germany, unlike much of the rest of the world, making a generalization about charging pollution incorrect. |
I had no trouble finding the info despite a lack of links, a simple search got numerous results.
Most any news website has a political bias. but here is one that might be of interest to you, citing several sources, including the Union of Concerned Scientists.....
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/interna...-vehicles/
of course this entire thread is based on an announcement by a giant corporation, that would never ever skew its announcements, and press releases for profit or political favor, right?
Also note that the website daily caller did note that german reliance on coal does skew the results, That info was not hidden, it was plainly explained. Note also the reliance of coal in Red China in my linked article, there too it is acknowledged that the CO2 pollution (of course maybe the CO2 is not all that bad of a pollution) from electric car manufacture and charging is indeed dependant on the power source.
_________________
Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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windfish
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2012
Posts: 1126
Location: NC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:45 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| sb001 wrote: |
| My issue has nothing to do with ICE vs electric... I just simply don't get the idea of supporting the hypocrisy of VW by purchasing an (outrageously overpriced) conversion for your classic air cooled when VW themselves have refused to support these same cars for the last 3 decades at least. |
I mostly agree that this smells like a 'feels good' marketing gimmick, but has there been a price released?
It's very likely to be to outrageously overpriced, but til they release it (...if they release it) that's a somewhat unfair attack.
The rest, fair enough.
| stuzbot wrote: |
These are the other sides of the argument that rarely get a mention when the 'greeness' of EVs is discussed.
Interesting that the biggest CO2 'culprit' in making an EV is the manufacture of the batteries. I'm assuming seeing as it's Lithium technology, the same as is in our computers and smartphones etc. that the batteries in electric cars are going to have a finite lifespan and [again, as with our phones and laptops, etc] they'll gradually lose charging capacity over the years as they approach their end of life.
So that makes for some interesting calculations. What is the pollution cost per km for an EV, given various possible figures for battery lifespan? Have any figures ever been provided for this? It's something I wonder aobut when people mention buying EVs which are a few years old to use in their DIY conversion projects. Just how long does an EV battery last? With phones and laptops, around 5 years seems to be about the most you'll get out of one before it starts to seriously lose capacity. |
Phones and laptops live harsh lives, smartphones in particular. They're charged to full and nearly depleted every day, you'd have to be doing some serious driving to achieve that with an EV.
The Tesla battery pack is also babied. It's temp controlled and highly monitored, leading to very good lifespans.
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/stop-worryi...85236.html
In contrast, the early gen Leafs didn't have temp control and their batteries didn't do as well.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109640_lesso...0000-miles
I believe most (..all?) modern EV's control the temp of the pack now.
| bluebus86 wrote: |
You mention that the price of electric cars will drop, maybe true, maybe not. but the increased demand for electricity to fuel them will likely cause electric prices to go up, unless of course cheap coal burning plants are ramped up perhaps.
One thing to consider is the price of the materials for electric cars will likely go up as demand increases, that demand by dictate. Electric cars consume a lot of copper, rare earths, and battery materials. some of these materials are already expensive to mine, and produce, and their cost will likely go up if Red China were to clamp down on pollution caused by their production, as Red China is a major source of these materials. |
The price of EV's has been consistently falling.
The battery pack is the most expensive component, as production increases prices decrease.
Rare earth metals aren't all that rare. This was discussed in the main EV thread (...that this is morphing in to, see how nice it was to have one thread to keep this crap in?)
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/17/17246444/rare-earth-metals-discovery-japan-china-monopoly
EV's will certainly put more draw on the electrical grid, check out some IEEE articles if you're actually serious about learning about it.
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Also note that the website daily caller did note that german reliance on coal does skew the results, That info was not hidden, it was plainly explained. Note also the reliance of coal in Red China in my linked article, there too it is acknowledged that the CO2 pollution (of course maybe the CO2 is not all that bad of a pollution) from electric car manufacture and charging is indeed dependant on the power source. |
It's still cherry picking.
Find the countries with the shittiest, most polluting power generation and claim that EV's are terrible. It also focused on a single pollutant.
What about EV's in France, where power gen is 72.3% nuclear?
Germany is only currently using that much coal because it went nuts and shut down their nuclear plants, but had to keep the lights on. |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:18 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| windfish wrote: |
| sb001 wrote: |
| My issue has nothing to do with ICE vs electric... I just simply don't get the idea of supporting the hypocrisy of VW by purchasing an (outrageously overpriced) conversion for your classic air cooled when VW themselves have refused to support these same cars for the last 3 decades at least. |
I mostly agree that this smells like a 'feels good' marketing gimmick, but has there been a price released?
It's very likely to be to outrageously overpriced, but til they release it (...if they release it) that's a somewhat unfair attack.
The rest, fair enough.
| stuzbot wrote: |
These are the other sides of the argument that rarely get a mention when the 'greeness' of EVs is discussed.
Interesting that the biggest CO2 'culprit' in making an EV is the manufacture of the batteries. I'm assuming seeing as it's Lithium technology, the same as is in our computers and smartphones etc. that the batteries in electric cars are going to have a finite lifespan and [again, as with our phones and laptops, etc] they'll gradually lose charging capacity over the years as they approach their end of life.
So that makes for some interesting calculations. What is the pollution cost per km for an EV, given various possible figures for battery lifespan? Have any figures ever been provided for this? It's something I wonder aobut when people mention buying EVs which are a few years old to use in their DIY conversion projects. Just how long does an EV battery last? With phones and laptops, around 5 years seems to be about the most you'll get out of one before it starts to seriously lose capacity. |
Phones and laptops live harsh lives, smartphones in particular. They're charged to full and nearly depleted every day, you'd have to be doing some serious driving to achieve that with an EV.
The Tesla battery pack is also babied. It's temp controlled and highly monitored, leading to very good lifespans.
https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-news/stop-worryi...85236.html
In contrast, the early gen Leafs didn't have temp control and their batteries didn't do as well.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1109640_lesso...0000-miles
I believe most (..all?) modern EV's control the temp of the pack now.
| bluebus86 wrote: |
You mention that the price of electric cars will drop, maybe true, maybe not. but the increased demand for electricity to fuel them will likely cause electric prices to go up, unless of course cheap coal burning plants are ramped up perhaps.
One thing to consider is the price of the materials for electric cars will likely go up as demand increases, that demand by dictate. Electric cars consume a lot of copper, rare earths, and battery materials. some of these materials are already expensive to mine, and produce, and their cost will likely go up if Red China were to clamp down on pollution caused by their production, as Red China is a major source of these materials. |
The price of EV's has been consistently falling.
The battery pack is the most expensive component, as production increases prices decrease.
Rare earth metals aren't all that rare. This was discussed in the main EV thread (...that this is morphing in to, see how nice it was to have one thread to keep this crap in?)
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/17/17246444/rare-earth-metals-discovery-japan-china-monopoly
EV's will certainly put more draw on the electrical grid, check out some IEEE articles if you're actually serious about learning about it.
| bluebus86 wrote: |
| Also note that the website daily caller did note that german reliance on coal does skew the results, That info was not hidden, it was plainly explained. Note also the reliance of coal in Red China in my linked article, there too it is acknowledged that the CO2 pollution (of course maybe the CO2 is not all that bad of a pollution) from electric car manufacture and charging is indeed dependant on the power source. |
It's still cherry picking.
Find the countries with the shittiest, most polluting power generation and claim that EV's are terrible. It also focused on a single pollutant.
What about EV's in France, where power gen is 72.3% nuclear?
Germany is only currently using that much coal because it went nuts and shut down their nuclear plants, but had to keep the lights on. |
Rare earths are not rare, but extremely harsh on the environment to extract in the quantities needed. as is copper production. specially in red china where there is a lack of environmental controls.
As for cherry picking data r.e. coal to power electric plants. The article in question made it clear that that info applied to Germany specifically because of their use of coal, that is if you are actually serious about reading and understanding it.
For france, you,mght consider the pollution from nuclear power plants, be it the radioactive waste, or the mining and processing of the uranium, you seem to gloss over that fact. Are you cherry picking the facts and ignoring the pollution of a nuclear power plant? Then we have nuclear accidents, rare they are thank God, but very devastating.
Now mass production of batteries may allow decrease in prices do to efficiencies of scale, but demand also can increase prices.
As for electric generation capability, the more electric cars, the more we need, that can increase electric prices. Many new electric generation methods, although clean ( ignoring the manufacture of the solar panels) are expensive, and have reliability issues, as in they dont work well at night, or in the winter.
As for what you call serious driving, the VW bug noted in this thread goes 129 miles before it dies, of course no mention as to how they come up with that range number, with the heater running? Stop and go traffic? constant speed? what Speed? what ambient temp? What effect does the rapid, ie 1 hour charge have on battery life verses slow charge? This data totally lacking in VWs P.R. press release.
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windfish
Samba Member
Joined: September 05, 2012
Posts: 1126
Location: NC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:00 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| bluebus86 wrote: |
Rare earths are not rare, but extremely harsh on the environment to extract in the quantities needed. as is copper production. specially in red china where there is a lack of environmental controls.
As for cherry picking data r.e. coal to power electric plants. The article in question made it clear that that info applied to Germany specifically because of their use of coal, that is if you are actually serious about reading and understanding it.
For france, you,mght consider the pollution from nuclear power plants, be it the radioactive waste, or the mining and processing of the uranium, you seem to gloss over that fact. Are you cherry picking the facts and ignoring the pollution of a nuclear power plant? Then we have nuclear accidents, rare they are thank God, but very devastating.
Now mass production of batteries may allow decrease in prices do to efficiencies of scale, but demand also can increase prices.
As for electric generation capability, the more electric cars, the more we need, that can increase electric prices. Many new electric generation methods, although clean ( ignoring the manufacture of the solar panels) are expensive, and have reliability issues, as in they dont work well at night, or in the winter.
As for what you call serious driving, the VW bug noted in this thread goes 129 miles before it dies, of course no mention as to how they come up with that range number, with the heater running? Stop and go traffic? constant speed? what Speed? what ambient temp? What effect does the rapid, ie 1 hour charge have on battery life verses slow charge? This data totally lacking in VWs P.R. press release. |
There are different ways of mining rare earths, some more environmentally friendly than others. There's a US rare earth mine in California.
China has been slowly cleaning up their act.
I did read the article. It mentions Germany's coal about halfway through.
But the headline and the bulk of the article were about how bad EV's are, they knew exactly what they were doing when most people just read the headline and skim the first bit of an article.
If the data is publicly available I might poke the numbers later out of curiosity, but coal power gen is pretty nasty -- which is why even China is moving away from it.
Nuclear is interesting. It's very clean pollution-wise, and could be even cleaner waste-wise if there was the political will (reprocessing 'spent' fuel).
The few bad nuclear meltdowns have largely been due to severe mismanagement and ancient reactor designs. Fukushima's reactors were older than Chernobyl's.
The new designs are significantly safer, but there's no political will in the West. China has no qualms and is building a bunch of them.
You're not the first to question EV's grid impacts, I again defer to the IEEE.
Range wise, there actually is a formula.
https://www.myev.com/research/buyers-sellers-advice/how-the-epa-rates-electric-vehicles |
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:56 am Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| windfish wrote: |
| bluebus86 wrote: |
Rare earths are not rare, but extremely harsh on the environment to extract in the quantities needed. as is copper production. specially in red china where there is a lack of environmental controls.
As for cherry picking data r.e. coal to power electric plants. The article in question made it clear that that info applied to Germany specifically because of their use of coal, that is if you are actually serious about reading and understanding it.
For france, you,mght consider the pollution from nuclear power plants, be it the radioactive waste, or the mining and processing of the uranium, you seem to gloss over that fact. Are you cherry picking the facts and ignoring the pollution of a nuclear power plant? Then we have nuclear accidents, rare they are thank God, but very devastating.
Now mass production of batteries may allow decrease in prices do to efficiencies of scale, but demand also can increase prices.
As for electric generation capability, the more electric cars, the more we need, that can increase electric prices. Many new electric generation methods, although clean ( ignoring the manufacture of the solar panels) are expensive, and have reliability issues, as in they dont work well at night, or in the winter.
As for what you call serious driving, the VW bug noted in this thread goes 129 miles before it dies, of course no mention as to how they come up with that range number, with the heater running? Stop and go traffic? constant speed? what Speed? what ambient temp? What effect does the rapid, ie 1 hour charge have on battery life verses slow charge? This data totally lacking in VWs P.R. press release. |
There are different ways of mining rare earths, some more environmentally friendly than others. There's a US rare earth mine in California.
China has been slowly cleaning up their act.
I did read the article. It mentions Germany's coal about halfway through.
But the headline and the bulk of the article were about how bad EV's are, they knew exactly what they were doing when most people just read the headline and skim the first bit of an article.
If the data is publicly available I might poke the numbers later out of curiosity, but coal power gen is pretty nasty -- which is why even China is moving away from it.
Nuclear is interesting. It's very clean pollution-wise, and could be even cleaner waste-wise if there was the political will (reprocessing 'spent' fuel).
The few bad nuclear meltdowns have largely been due to severe mismanagement and ancient reactor designs. Fukushima's reactors were older than Chernobyl's.
The new designs are significantly safer, but there's no political will in the West. China has no qualms and is building a bunch of them.
You're not the first to question EV's grid impacts, I again defer to the IEEE.
Range wise, there actually is a formula.
https://www.myev.com/research/buyers-sellers-advice/how-the-epa-rates-electric-vehicles |
Red China is not "moving away" from coal in fact they are building more coal fired plants. You know exactly what your doing, painting a false picture, while claiming others are doing it.
Red Chinese coal plant data...
https://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Proposed_coal_plants_in_China
In the Daily Caller article, German coal is mentioned in the fifth paragraph, The fourth paragraph contains the results of the study, and the fact that this study applies to germany. The article also mentions how the tesla is cleaner in other areas not reliant on coal.
No where was electric cars called bad in that article.
You act as if you were somehow fooled, or tricked by the article, that is so sad. 
Meanwhile electric cars are labled by many as "zero emissions". Even governments use that term for them, fooling some I suppose. Do you cry foul for that?
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windfish
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:12 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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The red chinese leaders say a lot of things, sometimes they lie. At anyrate they are building more coal plants, many more. Many materials for electric cars are being mined, process, refined in red china using coal generated energy. That is a fact a fact you seem to want to ignore.
One of the articles you posted above mentions over a 20% increase in red chinese use thru 2030. I suppose the author(s) were hoping folks wouldn't read past the headline? Yeah that sure sounds like they are moving away from coal all right  Was that not one of your complaints, i.e. deceptive headlines, people wont read the full article, and thus be fooled?
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windfish
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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Sure looks like a decrease to me
https://chinapower.csis.org/energy-footprint/
I think it's important to keep in mind just how big China is.
1.42 Billion people.
They can continue building coal plants while lessening their overall percent of coal power, via shutting down old plants and building out other energy sources.
Which link was it that mentioned a 20% increase?
"In accordance with the 2016 Paris Agreement, China has committed to make non-fossil fuel energy 20 percent of its energy supply by 2030."
One of the best things about EV's is that the motor doesn't care where the power comes from.
Future lower polluting power generators immediately impact every EV on the road.
Future battery tech could, at least in theory, be retrofitted to existing EV's.
If current EV's are just at parity due to coal so be it.
The tech will continue to mature and the power plants will, hopefully, continue to get cleaner. |
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KTPhil
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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It's deja vu all over again....
| EverettB wrote: |
| Yes, let's stay on the topic of this article rather than the general overall complaints that kept coming up in the overall electric car thread... please |
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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| windfish wrote: |
Sure looks like a decrease to me
https://chinapower.csis.org/energy-footprint/
I think it's important to keep in mind just how big China is.
1.42 Billion people.
They can continue building coal plants while lessening their overall percent of coal power, via shutting down old plants and building out other energy sources.
Which link was it that mentioned a 20% increase?
"In accordance with the 2016 Paris Agreement, China has committed to make non-fossil fuel energy 20 percent of its energy supply by 2030."
One of the best things about EV's is that the motor doesn't care where the power comes from.
Future lower polluting power generators immediately impact every EV on the road.
Future battery tech could, at least in theory, be retrofitted to existing EV's.
If current EV's are just at parity due to coal so be it.
The tech will continue to mature and the power plants will, hopefully, continue to get cleaner. |
that graph shows percent of coal plant verse total energy produced. It does not show the fact that red china is burning more coal than before, despite that being the case, that is very deceptive of you. The fact is they are putting more coal plants on line. You know what your doing, you are "publishing the headline" but not showing the actual coal usage numbers. Cherry picking your data presentation, hoping folks as you stated, just read the headline.
Regardless, electric cars in red china are largely coal powered. Batteries produced in red china are largely manufactured with coal power.
Red chinese coal consumption has increase 2.5 times roughly since 2000, it did dip a bit in 2015 likely do to a recession, and now has climbed again. in 2017 = 1890 TOE (Ton of Oil Equivelent) to in 2018 = 1907 TOE.
New coal plants are being built there, they are not reducing coal consumption, rather increasing it.
to answer your question on the 20% Increase in red chinese coal use, see your link from Bloomberg, third paragraph, actually it states 21%, I rounded to 20% and that is thru year 2030. Try reading more than the headlines of your own links.
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bluebus86
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| Posted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: VW Approved Electric Conversions on the Horizon? |
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What does the CEO of VW think of the electric VW?...
Green hysteria is on the verge of destroying Germany’s car industry, the CEO of Volkswagen has warned. Since motor manufacturing is Germany’s biggest industry sector, this effectively means: Auf Wiedersehen to the German economy.
VW chief Herbert Diess has told Spiegel Online.... that the combination of climate protests against cars in general and stricter CO2 emission limits imposed by the EU are pushing Europe’s car industry to the “brink of collapse.”
He said:
“The current campaign against individual mobility and thus against conventional cars is reaching existence-threatening proportions.”
Diess also called out the nonsense of trying to force everyone to shift from petrol-driven cars to electric ones: the electricity that supplies them will still come largely from fossil fuels, so where will be the environmental benefit?
“Instead of using petrol or diesel, we’ll basically use coal, even if we’re electrically powered, and in the worst case we’ll use even lignite,” he said. “That drives the idea of electric mobility ad absurdum!”
The VW boss’s concerns are shared across the European car industry.
According to Reuters, reporting on the eve of Frankfurt’s biennial International Auto Show (IAA), which opens on Thursday:
“You have cars that cost an extra 10,000 euros to build, fleet-emissions targets requiring a certain sales volume and consumers who may or may not want them,” said one PSA executive. [PSA is the French holding group for marques including Peugeot, Citroen, Opel and Vauxhall]
“All the ingredients are there for a powerful explosive.”
By next year, CO2 must be cut to 95 grammes per kilometre for 95% of cars from the current 120.5g average – a figure that has risen of late as consumers spurn fuel-efficient diesels and embrace SUVs. All new cars in the EU must be compliant in 2021.
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