Stainless Steel Brake Lines

[Steve Marshall]

I've got one stock 91 Westy. I've got a German master cylinder that's about 5 years old, new pads and rotors and a fresh flush. If I dab pedal once they perform excellently. If I don't, like in a panic situation, they just don't "bite" like they should The pedal is firm but I'm going to say the stopping is 70% of what it is if I pump the pedal once.

Does this sound like a master cylinder failing again? Do they only last about 5 years? Or is this something that might be solved by SS brake lines? Is switching to SS noticeable? I don't really want to do a big brake upgrade unless there's just no hope for OE brakes?

Any thoughts are appreciated.

[JudoJeff]

The rubber hoses that connect your brakes to the lines get old and will push out or expand as you push on the pedal. Replacing them with the stainless steel outer reinforced ones will solve the problem. Relatively easy to do, available from many vendors.

If you do replace your copper brake lines, go with nickel-copper, not SS, which is very difficult to work with.
_________________
________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout)

[danfromsyr]

how many clicks to your parking brake?

if it takes more than 3~4 clicks to solidly hold your van in neutral on basic uneven surfaces (not a 15% grade)

get your rear shoes dialed in and keep them adjusted with regular use of your parking brake. (pending they're self adjusting properly).


when you stab the brakes with one good pump it moves the rear shoes out. then when you step on the pedal again they're solidly engaged. minimizing the fluid that has to build to move them and allowing the fronts to engage solidly.
ie. your front pistons won't clamp hard until the rear wheel cylinder has stopped moving the shoes in the drum.

*edit also a note to others out there. for most effective brakes, flush your brake fluid every 24~36 months.. on each corner until it runs clear.
race cars switch between dyed colors of brake fluid to assure it's all new each flush.
_________________

[Steve Marshall]

I pull up the brake handle 4" to the first click and get 4 clicks total lifting it firmly but without just yanking the hell out of it. Total travel is 5.5". Does this sound about right?

[danfromsyr]

in a controlled test drive area
pull the parking brake 2 clicks and see if it improves the initial braking effectiveness.
_________________

[Steve Marshall]

I just did the test but only pulling up one click. With one click the parking brake engaged and was noticeably slowing the van. I feel like the brake pedal did feel better. What does this tell me?

[greebly]

Some aftermarket wheel cylinders do not have internal springs that may lead to a soft pedal that may need to be pumped.

[leecat]

Are you 100% certain you don't have air hiding somewhere in a brake line? I have your exact symptom in one of my vans but I know I just have to bleed her again, just haven't gotten to it yet. And I have all stainless steel lines in her, but copper or stainless doesn't matter, a hard line is not going to induce pedal softness. Check the hoses for sure (stainless braided hose is illegal to run where I live) but not knowing the history of your van I sure would look at air being trapped somewhere.

[Steve Marshall]

I put in the Van Cafe German MC 5 years ago. Could it be aftermarket? It was at least double the $$ of the other options. I'm sure I don't have air. I use a speed bleeder and did a full system flush when I recently replaced the pads and rotors. My pedal is not soft per say. The braking is just 70% without the first pump.

leecat - I've had the problem you describe and it turned out to be a weeping rear brake cylinder. It was just barely moist but that was it.

[Wildthings]

If you have the original 25+ year old rubber lines they are going to be soft at this point, but if you change them out for new rubber lines, the new rubber lines should work just as well as new SS lines.

[erste]

[Steve Marshall]

erste - got it. Rear brake cylinders with springs! I was thinking MC in my earlier post. SS lines and Ate rear brake cylinders have been ordered.

[leecat]

Geeeez...now you guys have ME wondering if I DON'T have air in the brakes after all, but in fact spring-less wheel cylinders.

Dug through my Big Book of Receipts (it's longer than the Bible) and found I put Beck/Arnley ones in. I'll go digging online to see if they have the springs, but if anyone stumbles onto this and knows off the top of their head, that would be great too!

Thanks!

[Wildthings]

Beck Arnley is just a repackager. Sometimes you may get a genuine VW part from then and other times you may get something that is worth far less. In general I have had good enough luck with them though.

[leecat]

Thanks for the tip, Wildthings - next time I am in the rear drums dabbling I'll take a better look at the cylinders. At least it's not like, "Ooops, shouldn't have put those Chinese knock-off main bearings in!"

[Steve Marshall]

I remember specifically buying the cheap brake cylinders from a different source than I bought the German MC! "Why pay $ 23 when you get the same part for $ 11?" Lesson learned!

[dgbeatty]

Steve, I hope you have the proper tools and experience to work with DIN flares and stainless tubing. If this is a first time thing you have your work cut out for you.
_________________
Schau in das Buch

[jberger]

[leecat]

OH, sorry - I too took him to mean actually replacing all the original hard lines with hard stainless steel line. That's what I did and it's not that hard PROVIDED (as dgbeatty points out) you are experienced with stainless steel and have the correct brake construction tools. If you try to form stainless like OEM brake lines you are going to be one sad puppy with a lot of wrecked stainless tubing.

[Steve Marshall]

Ye. Braided SS lines. It didn't occur to me that changing the hard lines out with stainless would even be something to do? We don't have the rust/rot issues of our northern brothers. I guess perspective matters?