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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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Okay, I think we've found the culprit. Dad put the 2-pin back in place and played with the questionable formerly kinked (severely bent in two places as opposed to curved) wire that goes from the plug to the to the relay and all systems go:
If that wire is messed with, all systems no-go. As I type, engine is running!
Thanks for the help in tracking down the power problem, Mark! Now to permanently repair that wire... (and I'll be building a couple of your diagnostic tools once I'm back in the big city). _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Zeitgeist 13 Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2009 Posts: 12103 Location: Port Manteau
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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Reading Mark help you track down this diagnostic process was like watching a virtuoso in his element. I'm in awe. Congrats on the fix. _________________ Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
Reading Mark help you track down this diagnostic process was like watching a virtuoso in his element. I'm in awe. Congrats on the fix. |
He's an electrical genius.
Van drove across town for dinner and back without a hitch... once it was out of the garage (as soon as it was put in gear, stalled; tweaked that wire just a smidge and off we went). Problem isn't permanently fixed yet (need to get supplies), but at least we know what the source is. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Gizmoman Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 1554 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:34 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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A great read for morning coffee
Amazing work and great communication by the electrical gurus for sure.
It's posts like this that really are a testament to how well the forum works. Also makes me glad I have a diesel _________________ 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Jake de Villiers Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2007 Posts: 5911 Location: Tsawwassen, BC
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:03 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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You are very welcome. Kudos for sticking with it, that is key.
Yes, this is exactly the kind of problem that prompted me to build the wiring bypass tool. That tool could have possibly saved you a lot of time.
Note that the official Digifant testing procedures didn't catch this very basic wiring flaw.
Of course the bad main power wire problem wasn't really a Digifant specific problem and could occur with Digijet or any other FI system.
Mark
kamzcab86 wrote: |
......Thanks for the help in tracking down the power problem, Mark! Now to permanently repair that wire... (and I'll be building a couple of your diagnostic tools once I'm back in the big city). |
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E1 Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 6375 Location: Westfalia, Earth
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:58 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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Happy to read this! _________________ ‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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I retract my previous posts, in part. Parents went to drive the van today and no go, even after playing with the wire. Long story short, the problem was not the wire but my previous hunch: Digi power relay. It appears the diode may have gone bad and it was purely luck that we drove across town and back last night without issue. That 40A 5-pin relay is practically NLA, so what to do?
Converted the relay socket to 4-pin: Moved the black wire terminal from 87a to 86 and removed the black/white wire terminal (capped it off). Installed a 40A 4-pin relay, and voila, problem solved... hopefully, for good (edit: if you are reading this & decide to fo this modification, disconnect the battery first!!). It was started and run a handful of times in the garage tonight without a single issue, including no delay in the pump priming. The two fuel pump wires now have individual continuity too (they did not before). Now, if that relay happens to fail out on the road and they happen to not have a spare, the parents can stop at any FLAPS and get a new relay immediately.
Test drive tomorrow! _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子
Last edited by kamzcab86 on Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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DanHoug Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016 Posts: 4715 Location: Bemidji, MN
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:38 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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kamzcab86 wrote: |
Okay, I think we've found the culprit. Dad put the 2-pin back in place and played with the questionable formerly kinked (severely bent in two places as opposed to curved) wire that goes from the plug to the to the relay and all systems go:
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i've got an '89 that does EXACTLY that. my friend i bought it from discovered that wiggling the harness at that location would get him going from a total no-start that occurs at random times. i haven't stripped that relay box apart yet to see where/what the exact failure is. _________________ -dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32432 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:25 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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It wouldn't have been the diode in the relay all along since that would keep the relay from clicking on with the key on and clicking off with key off. That was something you checked for early on.
That special version relay has been a culprit more times than I would expect. It only has to carry a part of the load carried by the red wire that comes from power stud in the other wiring box. We have lately been fusing that red wire with a 7.5 amp fuse as protection in case of a short on the PS switch wire. So a relay rated at 40 amps shouldn't be overly worked when carrying just part of those less than 7.5 amps. And that part doesn't include the fuel pump amps since those only go through the FP relay.
The switch to the special 5 pin ECU relay was done to implement the Calif CARB mandated emissions OBD. This mandate was then delayed just before it was to go into effect. So VW switched back to a standard 4 pin ECU relay for the last couple years after 88/89. Of course the last couple years wiring diagrams wrongly still show it, another source of confusion for people trying to resolve tricky problems.
It is too bad that the Digifant Pro Training and the Bentley don't accurately reflect the relay wiring changes after 87.
Mark |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:03 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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djkeev wrote: |
To help those whi will follow in your footsteps.......
Do you have photos of what relay it is that went bad? OG relays have the big number stenciled on it as well as the bosch numbers and wiring schematic.
This relay can't be that proprietary. |
It's the silver Digifant power supply relay in the previously-posted photos. Part #321919505A (there's no number stamped on it; just a blue dot). None of the van vendors in the USA have it and only one exists in NAPA's database, ironically, in New Jersey. According to the parts guy, it is the 40A version of this 5-pin relay that makes it proprietary... according to his computer, only VW Vanagons use it. A 30A version is available (albeit not off the shelf), which could probably work, but since VW put twin 40A relays back there (and the Digi Cabriolets also use a 40A), I'd rather play it safe and stick with factory amperage.
Since that black/white wire is useless, it just made more sense to me to convert this van to a readily available (and inexpensive) 4-pin relay.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
It wouldn't have been the diode in the relay all along since that would keep the relay from clicking on with the key on and clicking off with key off. That was something you checked for early on. |
Well, something in that relay has gone bad. It did click, but simply wasn't passing nearly enough voltage through it for whatever reason. It has a sealed base so I can't simply pop it open to check it. Maybe I'll take it home and Dremel it open.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
We have lately been fusing that red wire with a 7.5 amp fuse as protection in case of a short on the PS switch wire. So a relay rated at 40 amps shouldn't be overly worked when carrying just part of those less than 7.5 amps. And that part doesn't include the fuel pump amps since those only go through the FP relay. |
Yeah, I did that fuse mod on my van along with changing the P/S switch terminals to fully insulated versions. The latter is something I had my dad do when they first got the van.
Since my '90 uses two #53 relays, I checked and the #53 is a 40A. So, just to be safe, I suggested Dad use a 40A 4-pin.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Of course the last couple years wiring diagrams wrongly still show it, another source of confusion for people trying to resolve tricky problems.
It is too bad that the Digifant Pro Training and the Bentley don't accurately reflect the relay wiring changes after 87. |
No kidding. I had to flip back and forth in the Bentley because the '90 diagram reflects what is actually in this '89 as far as wiring to/from those relays, but does not reflect what is actually in my '90!
What's interesting to me is that when VW finally implemented OBD I with Digifant I, they used a 38-pin ECU, coil pack, knock sensor, TPS, etc. It's quite different from what these vans would've had.
DanHoug wrote: |
i've got an '89 that does EXACTLY that. my friend i bought it from discovered that wiggling the harness at that location would get him going from a total no-start that occurs at random times. i haven't stripped that relay box apart yet to see where/what the exact failure is. |
Could very well be the Digifant power supply relay. In my previous post, I mentioned converting the 5-pin relay socket to 4-pin. I suggested that to my dad after studying the '87 and '90 diagrams (the black/white wire goes to ECU pin 23, which is for the OBD stuff that was never fully implemented; i.e., that black/white wire is pointless). He was game, so we did the wire terminal swap, plugged in a 4-pin relay he had on-hand, and problem solved... in the garage anyway... we'll be doing a thorough test drive later today. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:49 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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kamzcab86 wrote: |
Well, something in that relay has gone bad. It did click, but simply wasn't passing nearly enough voltage through it for whatever reason. It has a sealed base so I can't simply pop it open to check it. Maybe I'll take it home and Dremel it open.
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Though this would be for a very different scenario (engine swap, DIY wiring), I had two relays fail. The fuel pump relay developed a cracked leg, the power relay developed a cold solder joint. I had to look close with a magnifying glass to find the cracked leg. Worse yet, I suspect both those faults were intermittent. The clue to at least one fault was a buzzing sound from one of the relays. IIRC, rapping lightly on the junction box or the relay would cause a relay to buzz.
Does the Digifant 5 pin relay use a PCB?
I never did figure out what caused the leg to crack. Maybe vibration or wire strain at the pin in question. it was secure to the junction box but was not mounted in relay block. That relay was new with really low miles-hours on it.
Neil.
_________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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crazyvwvanman Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2008 Posts: 9895 Location: Orbiting San Diego
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:59 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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I think you did the right thing on that 89, moving the 2 wires to make the ECU relay socket wires match what 90/91 actually has (not what the 90/91 diagram shows, sadly).
kamzcab86 wrote: |
......
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
Of course the last couple years wiring diagrams wrongly still show it, another source of confusion for people trying to resolve tricky problems.
It is too bad that the Digifant Pro Training and the Bentley don't accurately reflect the relay wiring changes after 87. |
No kidding. I had to flip back and forth in the Bentley because the '90 diagram reflects what is actually in this '89 as far as wiring to/from those relays, but does not reflect what is actually in my '90!
...........................
In my previous post, I mentioned converting the 5-pin relay socket to 4-pin. I suggested that to my dad after studying the '87 and '90 diagrams (the black/white wire goes to ECU pin 23, which is for the OBD stuff that was never fully implemented; i.e., that black/white wire is pointless). He was game, so we did the wire terminal swap, plugged in a 4-pin relay he had on-hand, and problem solved... in the garage anyway... we'll be doing a thorough test drive later today. |
It turns out that the only year Digifant harness that consistently matches what the VW diagram shows for that year is 1987 vans, that match the 87 diagram
Below is the diagram that best matches what 88/89 with the special 5 pin relay should have wired up. (Copied from a VW wiring publication for various 1991 VWs, which of course it is wrong for)
!!!!So, IMO this is the true 5 pin 1988/89 Digifant Relay wiring diagram page to replace the one in the Bentley!!!!!
Mark |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:33 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) |
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Vanagon Nut wrote: |
Does the Digifant 5 pin relay use a PCB? |
No idea what's inside as it's a sealed relay. I'll get it cut open in the coming days and will report back.
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I think you did the right thing on that 89, moving the 2 wires to make the ECU relay socket wires match what 90/91 actually has |
Confirmation from the electrical wizard... awesome!
crazyvwvanman wrote: |
!!!!So, IMO this is the true 5 pin 1988/89 Digifant Relay wiring diagram page to replace the one in the Bentley!!!!! |
Yep, that's it. Well, not anymore for this particular van... that relay page in my parents' Bentley has pencil corrections all over it. I made notes and illustrations in their pro-training manual too. _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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kamzcab86 Samba Moderator
Joined: July 26, 2008 Posts: 7892 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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Curiosity got the better of me; pulled out the hacksaw. Here's the faulty 5-pin (basically NLA) relay:
Van fired right up this afternoon and drove all around town with several stops and starts... no problems! The 4-pin relay conversion appears to be a success! _________________ ~Kamz
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance." - 孔子 |
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Vanagon Nut Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2008 Posts: 10347 Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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Hacker! Edit: and I meant "Hacker" in a good way.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic#Hands-On_Imperative
.... "Hackers believe that essential lessons can be learned about the systems—about the world— from taking things apart, seeing how they work, and using this knowledge to create new and more interesting things."
Thanks for posting those pics. Did you see anything obviously wrong with the relay? _________________ 1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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[email protected] Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2019 Posts: 8
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Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 9:10 am Post subject: Re: '89 Westy - no start (no power to fuel pump) ~ solved |
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This is fantastci!!!
I just got through testing my 5-pin and it was good, but... looked up the price for replacement. ugh! i found one on rockauto
thank you, thank you, thank you kamz!
Anybody have any idea on what goes on inside a idle stabilizer control unit by chance? |
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