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walter kandetzki Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2003 Posts: 918 Location: Dillwyn, VA
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:07 pm Post subject: dished pistons |
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hi guys i am building a 1.7 CB type4 engine in my 68 beetle and the pistons it has are dished.would i be ok using them or do i need to have the crown shaved?i am going to use a cb performance cam and dellorto/weber carbs
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APPLEGREENVW Samba Member
Joined: November 30, 2003 Posts: 2379 Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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Lo Cash John Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2004 Posts: 2246 Location: Jacksonville, FL
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:13 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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You need more compression ratio than the dished pistons can give. _________________ www.LoCashRacing.org
More brains than bucks...Believe it or not!!
If you actually drive your VW, you need www.AirMapp.com
My boss told me I need to work on my mutli-tasking. So now when I use the bathroom at work I surf The Samba on my iPhone. |
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H2OSB Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013 Posts: 1282 Location: Modesto, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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I am in the exact same boat. I have an unused set of NOS 90mm pistons and liners. They're meant for a 411 and have a 3cc dish. I have tried every which way to increase the CR to run a decent cam.
You either need to flycut the heads or shave the pistons. Fly cutting is a dicey prospect because the exhaust studs are not too far under the surface so you can't get too much reduction. If you shave the pistons, other things need to be considered, like deck height.
Apple green may be right. Cut your losses, sell the ones you have and get flat tops...or...run less compression. Ray Greenwood suggested to me, with no base shims or head gasket you can get about 8.0:1 and be at roughly 85hp all day long. That would still be really fun in a Beetle.
H2OSB _________________ (o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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H2OSB Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013 Posts: 1282 Location: Modesto, CA
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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Btw, which of the two cams are you wanting to use? They seem to be a great compromise betwixt Scat and Web, money wise, but I'd like more details about them like effective rev range. Also CB has a good hardening process so SEEM like they should hold up well.
Against the advice of people I respect, I'm going to run either a Scat C25 or C35(if I can get the compression up) to try to stay cheap on my 1.7. I'll use this cam with stock reground lifters(by Web). For my other 1303, I'm building a 2056 with a Web 86A.
H2OSB _________________ (o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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H2OSB wrote: |
I am in the exact same boat. I have an unused set of NOS 90mm pistons and liners. They're meant for a 411 and have a 3cc dish. I have tried every which way to increase the CR to run a decent cam.
You either need to flycut the heads or shave the pistons. Fly cutting is a dicey prospect because the exhaust studs are not too far under the surface so you can't get too much reduction. If you shave the pistons, other things need to be considered, like deck height.
Apple green may be right. Cut your losses, sell the ones you have and get flat tops...or...run less compression. Ray Greenwood suggested to me, with no base shims or head gasket you can get about 8.0:1 and be at roughly 85hp all day long. That would still be really fun in a Beetle.
H2OSB |
Yep....the 3cc dishes ...are California 1.7L pistons. The other 48 states and most others ran the DOMED pistons that provided 8.2:1 with stock head gasket and .009" cylinder shim. Remove those and it safely subtracts about .030"ish from the normal .075"-.080" deck surrounding the dome This gives about 8.4:1 give or take.
With the dished pistons and a very light shave on the heads you can hit 8.0:1. With good tuning and cam you get 85 hp.
Flat tops are...ok. You will still have issues getting 7.8:1. If this is a bus...that might be ok.
You could order pistons from someone like Keith black or some other companies. Send them one of yours as a profile and tell them you want the dish inverted ...plus a little.
No it wont be cheap....but if you have seen the cost of a set of NOS Porsche 914/411/412 domed pistons....custom made pistons for a good set of existing used and cleaned up or NOS cylinders...are entirely affordable. Ray |
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walter kandetzki Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2003 Posts: 918 Location: Dillwyn, VA
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:48 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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now are the cylinders ok to use?i heard (could be totally wrong as i dont know much) to take 2.0 cylinders and bore them to 96mm and just buy the cylinders only as some aftermarket cylinders are junk (like i said i could be wrong...car wont be a race car) |
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Alstrup Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007 Posts: 7177 Location: Videbaek Denmark
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:04 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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I have never seen such pistons
Optimize the deck height to 1 mm sparp. Cut heads 1,25 mm and you will get close to 8,5 cr.
OR, source some 412E euro pistons, optimize the deck height and you are around 8,5 |
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H2OSB Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013 Posts: 1282 Location: Modesto, CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:23 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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That's quite a bit more dish than my pistons have. Mine have a barely visible depression. How much can you safely reduce the CCs of a 1.7 head before you run into trouble with the exhaust studs? I'd be thrilled to get to 8.5(9.0 even better) but I'm unsure what is realistic with what I have. I'd love to find 412E pistons, but even the NAME sounds rare.
H2OSB _________________ (o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:41 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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Actually Alstrup makes a good point.
I was thinking the same thing but just blew it off as optical illusion.........the pistons in your pictures......do not "look" anything like any dished piston I have found in any 411, 412 or 914 versions of a type 4 engine.
Can you post the part # of your piston and cylinder set?
Ray |
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mark tucker Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009 Posts: 23937 Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:57 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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force feed it a little..... |
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buguy Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 4915 Location: Port Orange, FL
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:58 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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If a little is good.... |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:52 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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30 years ago I used 2.0 dished pistons they were not so deep as my memory tells me, but we are talking 30 years ago, ha. Had new 1700 heads with a steep in them . I took it to hot rod machine shop and the guy ask what conpression do you want, I said high as you can got safely. He did some measurement and said 8:5 would be perfect. Just by removing the steep and a sight bit more. Same Engine in my car 30 years later no problem. _________________ email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
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LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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nextgen wrote: |
OK that said in my last post -- the car is running great for the last 30 years.
But never i ask this question---
Is there a performance difference with everything else the same , if you achieved the 8:5 with flat top pistons or the dished.
Does the dish change air flow??? |
Yes. I do not know about the dished because its damn hard to get decent compression with dished. But flat tops to domes at the same compression in a 1.7L.....the domes have cleaner more complete combustion and better throttle response.
The 1.7L head was well designed. That dimple on the edge of the quench area mirrors the edge of the dome shape and helps steer the mixture into the quench area.
I have rebuilt several 1.7L engines with flat tops modified for stock 8.2:1....running with D-jet. They run great....far better than dished at,7.3 amd flat top at 7.8.....but not,quite as good as domes at 8.2. Ray |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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nextgen wrote: |
Ray you lost me on the " damn hard to get decent compression with dished"!
You are not talking loss of compression, right !
Sealed chamber is a sealed chamber?? |
What I meant....is that its Damn hard to get a decent compression RATIO...for a 1.7L type 4 (maybe for a bus...but who drives a brick shaped POS like that ).....with dished pistons.
You cannot just willy nilly start fly cutting. You only have so deep you can go...and you are also shaving out the dimple (with no domes it probably does not matter). Or you will have to trim the cylinders.
Compression on type 4's...especially with any of the stock EfI...and especially on a 1.7L....matters a great deal. Its a big chunk of hp left on the table with low compression...along with most of the throttle response...and it tunes poorly with stock injection with low compression.
Anything less than 8.0:1 compression on a type 4 engine with good high ratio final drive gears...meaning not a bus....is a hot running mess. Ray |
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nextgen Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2004 Posts: 6008 Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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H2OSB Samba Member
Joined: April 14, 2013 Posts: 1282 Location: Modesto, CA
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:50 am Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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Ray--
In your opinion, do you think it's possible to shave out the 3cc dish on my pistons, with the understanding they are NOS pistons, (and I plan to have the case machined to get .040 deck height)?
H2OSB _________________ (o\_i_/o) I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, I'm a vegetarian because I hate plants. |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:39 pm Post subject: Re: dished pistons |
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H2OSB wrote: |
Ray--
In your opinion, do you think it's possible to shave out the 3cc dish on my pistons, with the understanding they are NOS pistons, (and I plan to have the case machined to get .040 deck height)?
H2OSB |
Sure...is possible....but think about that for a minute. You are taking 3mm out of the area above the ring lands. I just do not know how much strength and heat conduction metal that will remove.
Then...you still will have to have the cylinders turned/trimmed to now get rid of that huge 3mm deck. New pushrods (probably good anyway)....everything changes.
Hey...check this guy out. He is in Houston and has numerous sets of new 90mm 1.7L domed pistons for sale. Thinking about buying a set myself.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2212478
Ray
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2212478 |
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