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dobryan
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

Ed, cost analysis is not really correct on the tanks you posted. Buy an empty 5 or 10 lbs tank and only pay a few dollars to fill it each time. Yes they need a standard bbq grill regulator.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
Ed, cost analysis is not really correct on the tanks you posted. Buy an empty 5 or 10 lbs tank and only pay a few dollars to fill it each time. Yes they need a standard bbq grill regulator.

Very good point Dave... I can get an almost new one second hand on Craig's for almost nothing... then have it filled.

Is this the regulator I need?
https://vancouver.craigslist.org/van/for/d/vancouver-propane-gas-guage/6965500089.html

or this?
https://vancouver.craigslist.org/nvn/for/d/north-vancouver-propane-gas-regulator/6951995508.html
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:


If I build a kitchen into a van I don't build in a portable stove. I build in one meant for inside use.



She made a mistake (Home Depot actually)… the one I will order is for use indoor or outdoor.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
crazyvwvanman wrote:


If I build a kitchen into a van I don't build in a portable stove. I build in one meant for inside use.



She made a mistake (Home Depot actually)… the one I will order is for use indoor or outdoor.


Bottom line is if you are going to use any propane fired device (stove, oven, heater, lantern) that does NOT have a chimney indoors........... OPEN A WINDOW.
The smaller the house, the more important this becomes.

Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:50 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:
epowell wrote:
crazyvwvanman wrote:


If I build a kitchen into a van I don't build in a portable stove. I build in one meant for inside use.



She made a mistake (Home Depot actually)… the one I will order is for use indoor or outdoor.


Bottom line is if you are going to use any propane fired device (stove, oven, heater, lantern) that does NOT have a chimney indoors........... OPEN A WINDOW.
The smaller the house, the more important this becomes.

Dave


I agree if it is going to be used for a long time, like a heater. Opening a window to make soup or coffee is not necessary in my book. YMMV.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:25 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

if you feel like wearing belts and suspenders, put a gas/ carbon monoxide detector in the van. These are standard on RV builds.

https://www.amazon.com/Gas-26-Carbon-Monoxide-Detectors/b?node=7491103011
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:24 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:


Using any size propane tank inside the vehicle is considered unsafe, unless it is in a locker sealed off from the interior and vented to the exterior. That is why Westy external under mount tanks exist.



I kinda like the Reimo solution, two small propane tanks stored in a rear cabinet with external venting out the side:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


As shown in this video:


Link

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

OK, so the primary concern here is that you don't want to breathe in propane.
I was thinking that that main risk was possible explosion if the van gets in an accident.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

epowell wrote:
OK, so the primary concern here is that you don't want to breathe in propane.
I was thinking that that main risk was possible explosion if the van gets in an accident.

Main risk if your're out of the van - leak and explosion. Note if you're in the van when it leaks, you'll smell it well before it gets to an explosive mixture.

Main risk if you in the van and using the propane - carbon monoxide poisoning. You can't smell it, and you'll just doze off and die within 30 minutes.

So get a gas/CO detector!
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

My euro bus project will have an on board propane/butane tank in a locker vented thru the floor to the underside, and a CO/gas monitor as well. I did not want to penetrate the side panel....
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Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

That would be my ideal as well. And no electrical stuff should share the locker space other than perhaps a tidy and protected wire bundle passing through if need be. The complicating factor for me is finding the best spot for a sealed off tank to minimally use premium storage space but still be close enough to the gas consumer(s) to have a reasonable route between the supply and users. Perhaps a rigid gas line down through the floor and under the van to where the stove is. I would also want to be able to quickly and easily turn the tank valve on and off

One thing I really dislike about the 1 lb tank setups is the tank itself has no shutoff valve. The adapters that let the 1 lb tank attach to a bulk tank regulator instantly open the 1 lb tank for gas flow as you screw the adapter on. It is critical to think about this as you install or swap the 1 lb tanks or you can end up with a sudden cloud of propane. Screwing on the tank needs to be a last step so when the gas flow automatically starts it happens into the line(s) and not into the living space.

Mark

dobryan wrote:
My euro bus project will have an on board propane/butane tank in a locker vented thru the floor to the underside, and a CO/gas monitor as well. I did not want to penetrate the side panel....
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

I like the overall design as I have a tintop and am thinking on very similar lines as you. My variations:

I was going to use a sink made of one of those silicone collapsing bowls secured to essentially a cutting board with a large hole in it. When not needed, the "sink" is out of sight. When needed, you pull out the cutting board and then press down the silicone so its deep. I was planning to use a hose on the bottom for a drain that went through the floor into a bucket under the van. I have holes right behind the driver's seat from the (removed) A/C lines.

On the water, I suggest you size the compartment for those ubiquitous 2.5G square water containers with the built in spout every grocery store sells. These are the disposable ones you punch a hole in the top to start using. The nice thing about this strategy is they are sterile vs refilling something from campsite hoses, etc. Designed right, the compartment would be flexible enough for a variety of spouted square containers such as the one you are thinking of buying. For instance making the spout outlet in the compartment a long vertical slot that's wide enough to accomodate a variety of heights, and more bulky tap and cap apparatus would accomplish that. The compartment then becomes simply a spot to plop whatever container you have. You could start the trip with the one you want to buy, discover its a pain to fill and keep sterile and switch seamlessly to plopping those grocery store versions in. You can even raise the spout a bit simply by putting a folded towel underneath to raise a low spout for better use in the sink for washing, filling, etc.

I like what you're doing. Keep track of lessons learned and dimensions as I am still pondering the same thing. I would also add some tie off points to the cabinetry so things on the floor in front of it under way can be secured against sliding around. Maybe a gooseneck LED light for night time, etc
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

IdahoDoug wrote:
I like the overall design as I have a tintop and am thinking on very similar lines as you. My variations:

I was going to use a sink made of one of those silicone collapsing bowls secured to essentially a cutting board with a large hole in it. When not needed, the "sink" is out of sight. When needed, you pull out the cutting board and then press down the silicone so its deep. I was planning to use a hose on the bottom for a drain that went through the floor into a bucket under the van. I have holes right behind the driver's seat from the (removed) A/C lines.

On the water, I suggest you size the compartment for those ubiquitous 2.5G square water containers with the built in spout every grocery store sells. These are the disposable ones you punch a hole in the top to start using. The nice thing about this strategy is they are sterile vs refilling something from campsite hoses, etc. Designed right, the compartment would be flexible enough for a variety of spouted square containers such as the one you are thinking of buying. For instance making the spout outlet in the compartment a long vertical slot that's wide enough to accomodate a variety of heights, and more bulky tap and cap apparatus would accomplish that. The compartment then becomes simply a spot to plop whatever container you have. You could start the trip with the one you want to buy, discover its a pain to fill and keep sterile and switch seamlessly to plopping those grocery store versions in. You can even raise the spout a bit simply by putting a folded towel underneath to raise a low spout for better use in the sink for washing, filling, etc.

I like what you're doing. Keep track of lessons learned and dimensions as I am still pondering the same thing. I would also add some tie off points to the cabinetry so things on the floor in front of it under way can be secured against sliding around. Maybe a gooseneck LED light for night time, etc
Very good suggestions... this kind of feedback - bouncing ideas around is exactly how we come up with great things!

Regarding the water tank - I actually have not been intending for this water to be used for more than just cooking, and cleaning. We generally just use separate plastic bottles for drinking water. However, yes, if done right, the water from this "tap" could also be drinkable.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

I had also thought of a platypus bladder secured against the ceiling as a stronger flow strategy. Hose clipped up there ready to fill any size bottle or a camelbak bladder to ride or hike. For sink use the hose would simply clip to the cabinet above the sink. Now you have an emergency eyewash, run it out the slider its next to for a rudimentary shower or to was a bike or dirty pan, yank the whole bladder down to put out a campfire, etc. West Marine sells odd sized and fully certified soft water tanks for odd places. A simple netting arrangement up there to hold it and you’ve just gained huge counter space down there on the cabinet you’re building. I want the hose to be a one handed affair - sweep a hand up, pull it off a magnet or velcro and slap it in place above the sink with a duplicate magnet. Use a magnet and a flexy holder and out the window it sticks on the body and is aimable.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

Very very good thinking! Bladder or some kind of tank attached to the ceiling would increase water flow AND counter space. Wow. Might be more challenging to fill up however.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

So there is a decent amount of structure up in the headliner there to make a support. Across the B pillars is a sheetmetal rib and of course the left roof rail. Filling would be easy as I would fashion a fabric or stretchy sleeve or similar so you just pull it out and fill at a sink, hose, etc and then slip it back up there. Gravity empties it.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

Ed,
There's a van for sale locally, a tintop with Country Homes Camper cabinets. Part of the countertop sticks out over the rear seat/bed. Reminded me of your cooking on the bed idea.

It doesn't look like this one has the flip up table, or maybe it slots in. I'm not sure, but you can find more images of this setup online.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm curious about the bracket / tie down behind the pass. seat.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Another space to consider is the area to the left of the cabinets that ends up under the bed when it's folded out. Here's a pic of my current setup. The lid to that box has a cleat on it and there's 5 gal of water behind the small trash bin. This gets tethered down with a bungee, and obviously it has to be moved to set up the bed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Keeping it lightweight - I used pine or doug fir 2x1s with 3/16" panels and 1/2" plywood. The cabinets are anchored through the existing seat bolts in the floor.

I built it out pretty quick with a bunch of scrap material that I had, knowing that I'd want to build it right some day. Not shooting for perfection here, just build it out, try it out, and figure out what works and what doesn't.

Hope you keep this updated with your progress!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

Ed, probably you should buy this book:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1903706459?ie=...1903706459
Its UK based but the main appliances are similar everywhere, just some regulations differ.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

I have a small sailboat which I spend most of the summer on. The galley stove runs on 1 pound screw in canisters and last about 10 days. With 3 or 4 spares, I never run out. $5 for 2 at Wmart. I keep the one in use permanently screwed in. Have never had a leak. Left in over the winter, the next spring, still good and never a whiff of gas. The other thing about this is you can smell any leak quickly in a small space and just unscrew the canister and put it outside until you can source and fix the problem. I would never go any other way. Cheapest, smallest space requirements and easiest of install without solenoids and other equipment that can fail.

The Flame King looks good. For me the question is do I want a permanent stove/sink occupying cube inside on a rainy day when I only need them for an hour or so? ALL my kitchen stuff is in a wanagan type box and it can be set outside after using or even be set up outside for cooking. That way all the original interior space is useable for sleeping or just hanging out. My preference, but many like the built-in systems. Just go camping with a cooler and portable stove with a clean H2O plastic water jug and figure out what you want. If you build something-anything-I guarantee you will want to make modifications to the original design as you become a more sophisticated user.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: Kitchenette design DIY Reply with quote

You might find this thread interesting, it covers a lot of alternative designs for designing a kitchen cabinet in a weekender style camper.

Sadly, a lot of photos were hosted off site and many links to products have gone dead.
I'm not sure if the internet is getting better or if it is imploding upon itself.......

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=422850

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