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CrRusty Samba Member
Joined: March 04, 2010 Posts: 281 Location: Avon< CT
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:23 am Post subject: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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It seems like the availability and costs of AGM batteries have come along way in the last few years. I have an AGM (walmart)battery in my 2003 TDI Jetta for almost 9 years now, its still going strong.
Did a search in Bay and Vanagon land but did not turn up much info. I think the AGM are still not yet popular.
So Im thinking of replacing the starting battery in my Bay window with an AGM battery. The baywindow buses are unique since the aircooled engine (2ltr) creates a lot of heat compared to watercoolers, especially when turned off on the summer, and the battery is sitting above the muffler. Will the extra heat be enough to damage the AGM battery any differently than that of a flooded lead acid battery? We also have small output alternators.
Currently can get a 4 year free replacement AGM battery at Popboys for $147.
Appears to be a no brainer, but maybe others have some insight to share? |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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Here's mine. It's been working great
_________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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WhirledTraveller Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008 Posts: 1399 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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AGM's are just plain better than regular flooded batteries for starting use. No acid spill, more starting current, less self discharge. If you don't store them discharged they last a long time. _________________ 1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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I quit using AGM and went back to regular lead acid types.
Two reasons:
1. OG USA Optimas are overseas now and do not last long at all.
2. AGM doesn't like to sit; unless you trickle charge them they lose charge.
And then never fully recover..
Post your -recent- experience,
And it will be different than it was a few years ago..
So many things like this in the hobby now;
You would think at least batteries would be exempt FFS! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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a-marshal Samba Member
Joined: March 21, 2009 Posts: 270 Location: Toronto
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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CrRusty wrote: |
It seems like the availability and costs of AGM batteries have come along way in the last few years. I have an AGM (walmart)battery in my 2003 TDI Jetta for almost 9 years now, its still going strong.
Did a search in Bay and Vanagon land but did not turn up much info. I think the AGM are still not yet popular.
So Im thinking of replacing the starting battery in my Bay window with an AGM battery. The baywindow buses are unique since the aircooled engine (2ltr) creates a lot of heat compared to watercoolers, especially when turned off on the summer, and the battery is sitting above the muffler. Will the extra heat be enough to damage the AGM battery any differently than that of a flooded lead acid battery? We also have small output alternators.
Currently can get a 4 year free replacement AGM battery at Popboys for $147.
Appears to be a no brainer, but maybe others have some insight to share? |
I've gone ten years with my Optima shore power battery and eight years with the starter, no problems at all. If it makes a difference my '73 westy gets stored for 6 months every winter. _________________ -Ob. vehicle info....
1973 Westy w/ '74 1.8 liter / PDSI (type3?) carbs / 009 distributor / pertronix |
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WhirledTraveller Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008 Posts: 1399 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:59 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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Clatter wrote: |
I quit using AGM and went back to regular lead acid types.
Two reasons:
1. OG USA Optimas are overseas now and do not last long at all.
2. AGM doesn't like to sit; unless you trickle charge them they lose charge.
And then never fully recover..
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1) The OP didn't say anything about Optimas. There a plenty of other brands of AGM.
2) Your experience is the opposite of what extensive testing and use in the field has shown. The self-discharge of AGM's is *significantly* lower than flooded. AGM self discharge typically 1-2% per month, lower at colder temperatures, vs. around 5-10% per month for flooded. AGM should (and does, in my experience) go through winter storage without trickle charging no problem. If your battery is dead in the spring, either you had a phantom power draw or your battery was defective.
What is true is that AGM batteries like to be kept topped off. If you partially discharge them, and store them in that state, they will sulfate. For that reason they don't make great "storage bank" batteries. _________________ 1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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WhirledTraveller wrote: |
Clatter wrote: |
I quit using AGM and went back to regular lead acid types.
Two reasons:
1. OG USA Optimas are overseas now and do not last long at all.
2. AGM doesn't like to sit; unless you trickle charge them they lose charge.
And then never fully recover..
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1) The OP didn't say anything about Optimas. There a plenty of other brands of AGM.
2) Your experience is the opposite of what extensive testing and use in the field has shown. The self-discharge of AGM's is *significantly* lower than flooded. AGM self discharge typically 1-2% per month, lower at colder temperatures, vs. around 5-10% per month for flooded. AGM should (and does, in my experience) go through winter storage without trickle charging no problem. If your battery is dead in the spring, either you had a phantom power draw or your battery was defective.
What is true is that AGM batteries like to be kept topped off. If you partially discharge them, and store them in that state, they will sulfate. For that reason they don't make great "storage bank" batteries. |
agree.
also the optima has never leaked in my cars. I got tired of battery acid damage repairs. Specially bad to repair in a 914, Acid there runs into the rockers, the 914 can collapse from this acid damage. I have 3 or 4 optima equipped cars, one of them optimas is 14 years old.
Even if optimas lasted half as long they would be worth it from the acid damage prevention standpoint.
Bug On! _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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andrewtf Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2011 Posts: 604 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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We have them as our auxiliary batteries in both Big Emma and Murphy.
One reason is that we could get larger batteries (physical size) because AGM batteries can be stored on their side. This makes connections and everything else .............. easier. _________________ '75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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andrewtf wrote: |
We have them as our auxiliary batteries in both Big Emma and Murphy.
One reason is that we could get larger batteries (physical size) because AGM batteries can be stored on their side. This makes connections and everything else .............. easier. |
I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea. _________________ .ssS! |
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Q-Dog Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2010 Posts: 8700 Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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I installed this AGM battery into my buggy because it is shorter/smaller and lighter than the stock VW group 42 battery I was using. My battery box has been shortened and the stock battery is too tall to fit.
_________________ Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
'70 Beetle |
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ImAddicted Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2012 Posts: 1195 Location: Unorganized Territory, Maine
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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Abscate wrote: |
andrewtf wrote: |
We have them as our auxiliary batteries in both Big Emma and Murphy.
One reason is that we could get larger batteries (physical size) because AGM batteries can be stored on their side. This makes connections and everything else .............. easier. |
I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea. |
I think it is already too late for that...
As for the AGM vs FLA batteries, it is interesting to hear the vehement support of the AGMs in this thread, where on other forums like OverlandBound and ExpeditionPortal, they only preach AGMs in cases where mounting the battery is going to be in a non-vertical orientation or if you expect to do a lot of high-angle driving. Otherwise, go with FLA or a non-deep cycle marine battery (they have thicker plates than standard FLA but not as thick as deep cycle). The price difference doesn't justify the livespan.
Deep cycle is an entirely different animal but I assume we are not talking those since we are talking SLI batteries. _________________ 1979 Transporter (sold)
KC1MUR
strfish7 wrote: |
Original condition, which means something different on this forum than anywhere else! |
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rugblaster Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016 Posts: 1171 Location: San Angelo, Texas
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Posted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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My daughter drives a E350 Mercedes Benz and it has had 2 AGM batteries installed by the dealer in Fort Worth in as many years. I'm 250 miles away so they have us by the short hairs. The second one they put in was a few months out of warranty. That is about $800 worth of AGMs in two years. I don't know if I'm a fan or not. My wife's car has one in it too, but it's mounted in the trunk. Also, I had to buy a smart charger to charge the fokker. (We're out of town for periods of time, sometimes.) _________________ '69 Karmy, '69 Camper, Meyers clone, '65 drag bug, 10.78 @ 128 (sold it) '51 Dodge farm truck,
'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
VWoA factory trained line tech 75 till 90 or so
ASE Master Certification
VWoA Assoc. of Quality Technicians inductee (One of 25 in the five state southwest region)
La Confrerie des Chevaliers du Tastevin (San Angelo Chapter)
TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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WhirledTraveller Samba Member
Joined: January 09, 2008 Posts: 1399 Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:28 am Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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rugblaster wrote: |
My daughter drives a E350 Mercedes Benz and it has had 2 AGM batteries installed by the dealer in Fort Worth in as many years. I'm 250 miles away so they have us by the short hairs. The second one they put in was a few months out of warranty. That is about $800 worth of AGMs in two years. I don't know if I'm a fan or not. My wife's car has one in it too, but it's mounted in the trunk. Also, I had to buy a smart charger to charge the fokker. (We're out of town for periods of time, sometimes.) |
Modern cars can have significant power draw when they're off due to "always on" connectivity computers. This would be the same with a flooded lead acid. You could disconnect the battery when storing the car, although this will cause you to lose presets. _________________ 1977 Westy, Automatic. Big Valve heads, CS Cam. |
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andrewtf Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2011 Posts: 604 Location: Illinois
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:20 am Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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Quote: |
Abscate wrote:
I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea |
Quote: |
ImAdicted wrote:
I think it is already too late for that... |
No place else can make me laugh and cry at the same time.
Love / Hate all of you.
FYI - The AGM battery side was 'down' after the Big Emma drowning roll-over. Was under water for.... 24 hours or so. We still used it as Murphy's auxilary battery for several months this spring and summer. It worked perfectly except that it would not quite charge to 100%, but it got pretty close. And that was after them using the hell out of it for more than a year and then having a long soak in the river bath tub.
_________________ '75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6620 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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Did you roll Big Emma back over? Give her an enema!
I have all Optima batteries and one Walmart lead battery. The Walmart battery is $25. It's lasted over 2 years and still going. Now I ask myself if the optima are worth it. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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ImAddicted Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2012 Posts: 1195 Location: Unorganized Territory, Maine
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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andrewtf wrote: |
Quote: |
Abscate wrote:
I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea |
Quote: |
ImAdicted wrote:
I think it is already too late for that... |
No place else can make me laugh and cry at the same time.
Love / Hate all of you.
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Said with love, my friend .
heimlich wrote: |
I have all Optima batteries and one Walmart lead battery. The Walmart battery is $25. It's lasted over 2 years and still going. Now I ask myself if the optima are worth it. |
There's only a handful of battery manufactures out there. Optima is by Johnson Controls who also make DieHard, Duralast, Bosch, ACDelco, Champion and others.
Walmart's Everstart brand is by Exide, who also make Interstate, Exide, NAPA, older Champion, and others.
My old RAM (2001) had a Walmart battery for 11 years, used in northern Maine, before it had to be replaced. I no longer have that truck but the guy who is using it on his farm up the road still has that 2012 replacement Everstart in it. My DD and the better half's Jeep both have Everstarts in them. Even if they crap out at 5 years, for $50 a pop, that's $10 year. Red Optima would have to last 26 years to break even. Not sure it can do that. _________________ 1979 Transporter (sold)
KC1MUR
strfish7 wrote: |
Original condition, which means something different on this forum than anywhere else! |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6620 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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ImAddicted wrote: |
There's only a handful of battery manufactures out there. Optima is by Johnson Controls who also make DieHard, Duralast, Bosch, ACDelco, Champion and others.
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That's because China floods the market and sells their batteries for less than they can make them for. They put the competitors out of business and then slowly ramp the prices back up. They don't do this only with batteries. _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16879 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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batteries are ALL junk these days. the claim to fame for the AGM's is a "cleaner" voltage so lots of high end shit use them. even still, you're lucky to get 3-5 years out of most (in high end cars, that is)
buy the biggest, cheapest battery you can stuff in the slot and call it a day. I just had to replace the battery in my blazah (that's right, bla-zah) plow truck. it lasted me 11 years.
the exact same battery I replaced it with must have weighed 5 pounds less. point being....they don't make them like they use to.
AGM isn't needed unless you have a special need for one. i'd save my money _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
batteries are ALL junk these days. the claim to fame for the AGM's is a "cleaner" voltage so lots of high end shit use them. even still, you're lucky to get 3-5 years out of most (in high end cars, that is)
buy the biggest, cheapest battery you can stuff in the slot and call it a day. I just had to replace the battery in my blazah (that's right, bla-zah) plow truck. it lasted me 11 years.
the exact same battery I replaced it with must have weighed 5 pounds less. point being....they don't make them like they use to.
AGM isn't needed unless you have a special need for one. i'd save my money |
^^^^Thank you for your real experience in the field^^^^
Mine has been the same. _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2936 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? |
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The AGM in my 2008 E-class was only replaced in 2018. I think constant use is better for that battery. The lead acid in my Beetle was replaced in 2012. Still using it. I drive the car only 1000mi/yr or less. _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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