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Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery?
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CrRusty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

It seems like the availability and costs of AGM batteries have come along way in the last few years. I have an AGM (walmart)battery in my 2003 TDI Jetta for almost 9 years now, its still going strong.

Did a search in Bay and Vanagon land but did not turn up much info. I think the AGM are still not yet popular.

So Im thinking of replacing the starting battery in my Bay window with an AGM battery. The baywindow buses are unique since the aircooled engine (2ltr) creates a lot of heat compared to watercoolers, especially when turned off on the summer, and the battery is sitting above the muffler. Will the extra heat be enough to damage the AGM battery any differently than that of a flooded lead acid battery? We also have small output alternators.

Currently can get a 4 year free replacement AGM battery at Popboys for $147.
Appears to be a no brainer, but maybe others have some insight to share?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:42 am    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

Here's mine. It's been working great

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:05 am    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

AGM's are just plain better than regular flooded batteries for starting use. No acid spill, more starting current, less self discharge. If you don't store them discharged they last a long time.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

I quit using AGM and went back to regular lead acid types.

Two reasons:

1. OG USA Optimas are overseas now and do not last long at all.

2. AGM doesn't like to sit; unless you trickle charge them they lose charge.
And then never fully recover..


Post your -recent- experience,
And it will be different than it was a few years ago..

So many things like this in the hobby now;
You would think at least batteries would be exempt FFS!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

CrRusty wrote:
It seems like the availability and costs of AGM batteries have come along way in the last few years. I have an AGM (walmart)battery in my 2003 TDI Jetta for almost 9 years now, its still going strong.

Did a search in Bay and Vanagon land but did not turn up much info. I think the AGM are still not yet popular.

So Im thinking of replacing the starting battery in my Bay window with an AGM battery. The baywindow buses are unique since the aircooled engine (2ltr) creates a lot of heat compared to watercoolers, especially when turned off on the summer, and the battery is sitting above the muffler. Will the extra heat be enough to damage the AGM battery any differently than that of a flooded lead acid battery? We also have small output alternators.

Currently can get a 4 year free replacement AGM battery at Popboys for $147.
Appears to be a no brainer, but maybe others have some insight to share?



I've gone ten years with my Optima shore power battery and eight years with the starter, no problems at all. If it makes a difference my '73 westy gets stored for 6 months every winter.
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WhirledTraveller
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
I quit using AGM and went back to regular lead acid types.

Two reasons:

1. OG USA Optimas are overseas now and do not last long at all.

2. AGM doesn't like to sit; unless you trickle charge them they lose charge.
And then never fully recover..



1) The OP didn't say anything about Optimas. There a plenty of other brands of AGM.

2) Your experience is the opposite of what extensive testing and use in the field has shown. The self-discharge of AGM's is *significantly* lower than flooded. AGM self discharge typically 1-2% per month, lower at colder temperatures, vs. around 5-10% per month for flooded. AGM should (and does, in my experience) go through winter storage without trickle charging no problem. If your battery is dead in the spring, either you had a phantom power draw or your battery was defective.

What is true is that AGM batteries like to be kept topped off. If you partially discharge them, and store them in that state, they will sulfate. For that reason they don't make great "storage bank" batteries.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

WhirledTraveller wrote:
Clatter wrote:
I quit using AGM and went back to regular lead acid types.

Two reasons:

1. OG USA Optimas are overseas now and do not last long at all.

2. AGM doesn't like to sit; unless you trickle charge them they lose charge.
And then never fully recover..



1) The OP didn't say anything about Optimas. There a plenty of other brands of AGM.

2) Your experience is the opposite of what extensive testing and use in the field has shown. The self-discharge of AGM's is *significantly* lower than flooded. AGM self discharge typically 1-2% per month, lower at colder temperatures, vs. around 5-10% per month for flooded. AGM should (and does, in my experience) go through winter storage without trickle charging no problem. If your battery is dead in the spring, either you had a phantom power draw or your battery was defective.

What is true is that AGM batteries like to be kept topped off. If you partially discharge them, and store them in that state, they will sulfate. For that reason they don't make great "storage bank" batteries.


agree.

also the optima has never leaked in my cars. I got tired of battery acid damage repairs. Specially bad to repair in a 914, Acid there runs into the rockers, the 914 can collapse from this acid damage. I have 3 or 4 optima equipped cars, one of them optimas is 14 years old.

Even if optimas lasted half as long they would be worth it from the acid damage prevention standpoint.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

We have them as our auxiliary batteries in both Big Emma and Murphy.

One reason is that we could get larger batteries (physical size) because AGM batteries can be stored on their side. This makes connections and everything else .............. easier.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

andrewtf wrote:
We have them as our auxiliary batteries in both Big Emma and Murphy.

One reason is that we could get larger batteries (physical size) because AGM batteries can be stored on their side. This makes connections and everything else .............. easier.


I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

I installed this AGM battery into my buggy because it is shorter/smaller and lighter than the stock VW group 42 battery I was using. My battery box has been shortened and the stock battery is too tall to fit.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
andrewtf wrote:
We have them as our auxiliary batteries in both Big Emma and Murphy.

One reason is that we could get larger batteries (physical size) because AGM batteries can be stored on their side. This makes connections and everything else .............. easier.


I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea.
I think it is already too late for that...

As for the AGM vs FLA batteries, it is interesting to hear the vehement support of the AGMs in this thread, where on other forums like OverlandBound and ExpeditionPortal, they only preach AGMs in cases where mounting the battery is going to be in a non-vertical orientation or if you expect to do a lot of high-angle driving. Otherwise, go with FLA or a non-deep cycle marine battery (they have thicker plates than standard FLA but not as thick as deep cycle). The price difference doesn't justify the livespan.

Deep cycle is an entirely different animal but I assume we are not talking those since we are talking SLI batteries.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

My daughter drives a E350 Mercedes Benz and it has had 2 AGM batteries installed by the dealer in Fort Worth in as many years. I'm 250 miles away so they have us by the short hairs. The second one they put in was a few months out of warranty. That is about $800 worth of AGMs in two years. I don't know if I'm a fan or not. My wife's car has one in it too, but it's mounted in the trunk. Also, I had to buy a smart charger to charge the fokker. (We're out of town for periods of time, sometimes.)
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:28 am    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

rugblaster wrote:
My daughter drives a E350 Mercedes Benz and it has had 2 AGM batteries installed by the dealer in Fort Worth in as many years. I'm 250 miles away so they have us by the short hairs. The second one they put in was a few months out of warranty. That is about $800 worth of AGMs in two years. I don't know if I'm a fan or not. My wife's car has one in it too, but it's mounted in the trunk. Also, I had to buy a smart charger to charge the fokker. (We're out of town for periods of time, sometimes.)


Modern cars can have significant power draw when they're off due to "always on" connectivity computers. This would be the same with a flooded lead acid. You could disconnect the battery when storing the car, although this will cause you to lose presets.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

Quote:
Abscate wrote:
I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea




Quote:
ImAdicted wrote:
I think it is already too late for that...


No place else can make me laugh and cry at the same time.

Love / Hate all of you.

FYI - The AGM battery side was 'down' after the Big Emma drowning roll-over. Was under water for.... 24 hours or so. We still used it as Murphy's auxilary battery for several months this spring and summer. It worked perfectly except that it would not quite charge to 100%, but it got pretty close. And that was after them using the hell out of it for more than a year and then having a long soak in the river bath tub.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

Did you roll Big Emma back over? Give her an enema!


I have all Optima batteries and one Walmart lead battery. The Walmart battery is $25. It's lasted over 2 years and still going. Now I ask myself if the optima are worth it.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

andrewtf wrote:
Quote:
Abscate wrote:
I think flooded batteries in Big Emma would be a bad idea




Quote:
ImAdicted wrote:
I think it is already too late for that...


No place else can make me laugh and cry at the same time.

Love / Hate all of you.



Said with love, my friend Smile.



heimlich wrote:

I have all Optima batteries and one Walmart lead battery. The Walmart battery is $25. It's lasted over 2 years and still going. Now I ask myself if the optima are worth it.


There's only a handful of battery manufactures out there. Optima is by Johnson Controls who also make DieHard, Duralast, Bosch, ACDelco, Champion and others.
Walmart's Everstart brand is by Exide, who also make Interstate, Exide, NAPA, older Champion, and others.
My old RAM (2001) had a Walmart battery for 11 years, used in northern Maine, before it had to be replaced. I no longer have that truck but the guy who is using it on his farm up the road still has that 2012 replacement Everstart in it. My DD and the better half's Jeep both have Everstarts in them. Even if they crap out at 5 years, for $50 a pop, that's $10 year. Red Optima would have to last 26 years to break even. Not sure it can do that.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

ImAddicted wrote:

There's only a handful of battery manufactures out there. Optima is by Johnson Controls who also make DieHard, Duralast, Bosch, ACDelco, Champion and others.



That's because China floods the market and sells their batteries for less than they can make them for. They put the competitors out of business and then slowly ramp the prices back up. They don't do this only with batteries.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

batteries are ALL junk these days. the claim to fame for the AGM's is a "cleaner" voltage so lots of high end shit use them. even still, you're lucky to get 3-5 years out of most (in high end cars, that is)

buy the biggest, cheapest battery you can stuff in the slot and call it a day. I just had to replace the battery in my blazah (that's right, bla-zah) plow truck. it lasted me 11 years.

the exact same battery I replaced it with must have weighed 5 pounds less. point being....they don't make them like they use to.

AGM isn't needed unless you have a special need for one. i'd save my money
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
batteries are ALL junk these days. the claim to fame for the AGM's is a "cleaner" voltage so lots of high end shit use them. even still, you're lucky to get 3-5 years out of most (in high end cars, that is)

buy the biggest, cheapest battery you can stuff in the slot and call it a day. I just had to replace the battery in my blazah (that's right, bla-zah) plow truck. it lasted me 11 years.

the exact same battery I replaced it with must have weighed 5 pounds less. point being....they don't make them like they use to.

AGM isn't needed unless you have a special need for one. i'd save my money


^^^^Thank you for your real experience in the field^^^^

Mine has been the same.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Are AGM Batteries an improvement over typical lead acid battery? Reply with quote

The AGM in my 2008 E-class was only replaced in 2018. I think constant use is better for that battery. The lead acid in my Beetle was replaced in 2012. Still using it. I drive the car only 1000mi/yr or less.
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