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VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ?
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Steve65cobra
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:38 pm    Post subject: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

I recently acquired my Certificate from VW for my 1966 Type III Variant / Squareback and am pleased yet disappointed. It correctly lists my car as a Model Year 1966 with the sunroof, Finish as L650 Granada Red, but it also lists my car as having the Interior as "78 / Black, leatherette". My car has the either white or silver/beige (cannot tell...it could be either) and it appears to be the original interior. I am the fifth owner. While it is possible someone changed the seat coverings, they definitely appear to be original--especially the back seat.

Under "Special Configuration", three options were listed. First is M456 which "cannot be identified", second is M002 which is "Sealed-beam headlamps", and third is M251 which is "White wall tyres". Now, what is the "M456" option...possibly the silver/beige interior? It is not likely the 30mm lowered suspension as listed on one website. My car is darned-near original condition and even came with the owner's manual packet where the original engine number was listed (which is what I provided VW) and they confirmed such on the Certificate as "Your engine number is the original one since date of delivery."

I welcome comments, please. I'm 99% certain the M456 has something to do with this. The Germans are typically VERY ACCURATE but this time I'm a bit puzzled.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

I am doubting the M456 means interior color. I don't see any other M-codes relating to interior color.

Those birth certificates often contain errors or omissions. Not very German...
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

M456 seems to be suspension related on Porsche's as well. There was a special code for squareback heavy duty rear suspension that also had (I think) bigger brakes. It wasn't 456 though.

Interesting. They do make mistakes though, and seem quick to fix them if you contact them
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:40 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

I don't see a clear photo of your interior but the front seats do look like the 1966-only seat pattern as seen through the front windshield.
If they are redone, I would seriously doubt they redid them correctly and with the right pattern

I have a listing that is not completely on the site here (yet) but M456 is not listed there.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

It is possible it relates to the rear suspension. I noticed the car has coil-over rear shocks which make the rear wheels tuck in a bit. I thought it was due to a previous owner wanting to increase its carrying capacity and I have plans to replace the shocks with stock units.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Odometer indicates 54K miles...I believe it to be correct as there are too many tell-tale signs, such as overall unmolested condition and completeness.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Would y'all call this interior "white" or "silver/beige"?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Steve65cobra wrote:
Would y'all call this interior "white" or "silver/beige"?


Neither- it's #78 "Platinum" as seen here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/paintcodest3.php
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

It's 66 seats though

Dealer could have swapped it out. That's not un-heard of
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Tram,

Thanks!!!!! Not sure how I missed the link you posted but I really appreciate your help! That makes sense...the "interior code" the Certificate indicated the "78" but listed it as "Black, leatherette". It most definitely is platinum.

I will contact the factory and request a corrected Certificate and will continue to try to find out what the M456 is for.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Steve65cobra wrote:
Tram,

Thanks!!!!! Not sure how I missed the link you posted but I really appreciate your help! That makes sense...the "interior code" the Certificate indicated the "78" but listed it as "Black, leatherette". It most definitely is platinum.

I will contact the factory and request a corrected Certificate and will continue to try to find out what the M456 is for.


They goofed. #80 is black.

They must be bringing in Austrians to match the data for these certificates these days! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Erik,

Anything is possible and while the dealer could have swapped out the interior, I rather doubt it. The Certificate indicates the car was delivered to "Tourists" so it was likely a European delivery car ordered with U.S. equipment. Besides, wouldn't a black interior car have black door panels (door cards)?

The lady I bought it from told me the original owner was from Boston and it was later sold to one of their family members. Later, a fella bought it (third owner) and she bought it about 13 years ago. I've had it for about six months now.

My '60 Beetle Certificate indicates it was delivered to "San Antonio" so that was likely where the dealership was located.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

I am wondering if that M456 code has to do with a USA package for tourist delivery.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Steve65cobra wrote:
Erik,

Anything is possible and while the dealer could have swapped out the interior, I rather doubt it. The Certificate indicates the car was delivered to "Tourists" so it was likely a European delivery car ordered with U.S. equipment. Besides, wouldn't a black interior car have black door panels (door cards)?

The lady I bought it from told me the original owner was from Boston and it was later sold to one of their family members. Later, a fella bought it (third owner) and she bought it about 13 years ago. I've had it for about six months now.

My '60 Beetle Certificate indicates it was delivered to "San Antonio" so that was likely where the dealership was located.


Yes, definitely looks like all correct 1966 patterns to me.

Yes, a black interior would have black door panels and seats.

Tram wrote:
I am wondering if that M456 code has to do with a USA package for tourist delivery.

Definitely possible
455 is supposedly Canadian Equipment so that series could be delivery options for a specific market
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:01 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

EverettB wrote:
Steve65cobra wrote:
Erik,

Anything is possible and while the dealer could have swapped out the interior, I rather doubt it. The Certificate indicates the car was delivered to "Tourists" so it was likely a European delivery car ordered with U.S. equipment. Besides, wouldn't a black interior car have black door panels (door cards)?

The lady I bought it from told me the original owner was from Boston and it was later sold to one of their family members. Later, a fella bought it (third owner) and she bought it about 13 years ago. I've had it for about six months now.

My '60 Beetle Certificate indicates it was delivered to "San Antonio" so that was likely where the dealership was located.


Yes, definitely looks like all correct 1966 patterns to me.

Yes, a black interior would have black door panels and seats.

Tram wrote:
I am wondering if that M456 code has to do with a USA package for tourist delivery.

Definitely possible
455 is supposedly Canadian Equipment so that series could be delivery options for a specific market


Right, and the USA is right under Canada, so the 456 code would seem almost too logical. There really wouldn't any sort of a specific "USA code" for Type 3s pre '66 because they weren't officially imported here prior to that, though they could be special ordered. Pre '66 were likely brought in a M455, which, if I recall, was also referred to as "North American" if I recall correctly- and Canada also mandated sealed beams, red tail lights, and MPH speedos.

USA only officially got Deluxe models after official importation began (except for some 1973 cars). That also may have had something to do with the new M code.

Pure speculation on my part- but seems logical, I think.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

seems logical

Steve - I just saw you are in Houston (as am I). Are you aware of the show this Sat in old Tomball? they are calling it groove fest, it used to be "bikes and bugs and beer"
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Erik G wrote:
seems logical

Steve - I just saw you are in Houston (as am I). Are you aware of the show this Sat in old Tomball? they are calling it groove fest, it used to be "bikes and bugs and beer"


Erik - I'm in the Clear Lake area, southeast. Tomball is northwest which means I must drive through the awful Houston traffic. I'd rather have a visit with a proctologist than drive through Houston traffic.

Besides, last weekend my wife and I took our RV up to Glen Rose and met tons of cool folks with their VDubs! I think the event was sponsored by the Dallas/Ft. Worth club, but it was VERY WELL done. I took some photos and perhaps I should post them?

Bottom line is since we went to the Dallas area last weekend, I have a bumper crop of weeds/grass/mosquitoes to deal with on Saturday. Another time, perhaps?
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Steve65cobra wrote:

Besides, last weekend my wife and I took our RV up to Glen Rose and met tons of cool folks with their VDubs! I think the event was sponsored by the Dallas/Ft. Worth club, but it was VERY WELL done. I took some photos and perhaps I should post them?


Yes, you should post them up in the gallery.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Steve,

Yes as others have stated, the VW berth cert accuracy is spotty. I have seen too many people with the original sales slip with all the M codes for their car missed or misdefined when held next to a new birth cert. It's a shame that VW isn't more accurate. One of the reasons I haven't bothered in all these years and all the VWs I've had to get one.

I think the interior debate is settled? It looks nice in that square. Touristers are VWs with some rich history. I think there were lots of Touristers and German market only VW in the Texas area. GI's I think bought them before returning Stateside.

Falls in line with some of this.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=9079656&highlight=#9079656

You also want to have one of these.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2269006
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: VW Certificate Discrepancy??? M456 ? Reply with quote

Many, many thanks to all. 64 years old and I'm STILL learning cool stuff!
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