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KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34022
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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 Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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I have the tool Bentley shows, but it seems like it was just a timesaver/goof-proofing tool like dealers liked to use to use to save a buck and avoid errors. I believe the issue is to equalize the play in the axle shafts, so that they are still free at full suspension compression/extension. I've always given them a left-right shove and noted if they were the same side to side.
I think my '71's mounts have never been disturbed on the body, since only the carrier bolts get removed, not the mounts themselves. And when i rebushed the IRS (diagonal arm) bushings, I shimmed it same as original. And the car has never been hit in any way to bend this geometry. But those are the adjustment means if the play in yours is very unequal. |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:25 pm Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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| KTPhil wrote: |
I have the tool Bentley shows, but it seems like it was just a timesaver/goof-proofing tool like dealers liked to use to use to save a buck and avoid errors. I believe the issue is to equalize the play in the axle shafts, so that they are still free at full suspension compression/extension. I've always given them a left-right shove and noted if they were the same side to side.
I think my '71's mounts have never been disturbed on the body, since only the carrier bolts get removed, not the mounts themselves. And when i rebushed the IRS (diagonal arm) bushings, I shimmed it same as original. And the car has never been hit in any way to bend this geometry. But those are the adjustment means if the play in yours is very unequal. |
Mine has never been hit in the rear and as you I never removed the mounts before I only had the engine out twice and yet I reinstalled it once just the engine then the second time for the trans the carrier lined up perfect on the mounts. I never checked if the engine was actually centered. I'm pretty sure the IRS diagonal arms have the the shims the same on both sides.
I only replaced the mounts because they were so collapsed. I did the right side then the left yet only snugged up the 2 mount bolts and nuts from the mounts to the carrier and had the bolts and washers and lock nuts started in the mounts. Just to see if anything would move I was thinking about the auto trans mount I jacked up the engine in the center area of the carrier and both mounts moved since the right was back further and the left forward they were not equal before this is just moving the mounts in the front to rear mount slotted holes. I didn't force them I let the trans mount decide. Before I tightened the mount bolts I checked the engine center line with the 36" wide opening where the engine lid sits and it was dead center I just eye balled it before. Looked at bottom where the mount lock nuts and washers left marks they were very close it only moved 1/8" to the right.
I know before when I had it raised up quite a few times with the tires off the ground I could move both axles in and out about the same amount . I didn't measure this. I also did the same with the car on the ground and both had play. As I said I didn't measure either way just went by feel.
To be honest I never thought about it, I just noticed while wiping them off and while checking the CV bolts torque. I haven't checked the to see if the CV axles can be moved since I replaced the mounts. I'll check it before I drive it.
(Just an update. I checked the CV joints in neutral after bouncing the rear and each side moves about 1/2 " to 3/4" I raised it up with the tires off the ground and it was about the same ) so there is free play .
I was concerned since with the replacement mounts since they raised the engine up at the very rear close to an inch that the oil filler rubber bellows would not have more force on it , I loosened the clamp and it moved toward the engine a bit. I see I need a new one found a small split at the bottom side on the bellow that is closest to the engine I cleaned that area and used silicone to cover the slit , now I know why there was oil on the engine metal tube. |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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When I changed the oil last I noticed the tube to the engine is not level it's 1/4" higher on the area the stick reads also the rear of this car is a bit higher than the front and now that I changed the mounts bringing the rear up it also changed . When I changed the oil 2.5 quarts I jacked up the front and the level was 1/4" below the top mark. After I replaced the mounts it's now a about 1/8" above the half quart low mark. I also had a leak at the sump plate so I snugged the 6 nuts don't know how much I lost. To confuse myself even more I realized I only added a few OZ less than 2.5 quarts so I added some.
I guess Next oil change I'll replace the boot and pipe to engine gasket so the pipe is level . Then change the oil again. I think as long as it's above the 1/2 quart low mark I'm good. I ordered 2 quarts more that I will get the 9th of Oct . I have a bit less than 1/2 quart left right now. Maybe I'll add a bit of that just to bring it back up to 1/4" below the full mark. |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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I drove my 73 AT square first time today and all I can say is what a difference those mounts made. Even though I pinched the window channel felt on the passenger widow now at a stop in drive there must be 75% less vibration than before. It not only is much better in drive foot on brake it's also so much smoother and quieter while driving it.
I could hear a few things in the car rattle when I hit a bump a flash light against a mirror on the passenger ft floor and a cassette tape. And the passenger seat because it's missing the plastic deals on the seat rails. All of this was masked by this heavy vibration. The left door would vibrate the glass didn't make noise because the window wipers have no lip anymore yet the entire door would to the point where the 1/4 glass chrome that meets the door glass even though they are tight would become a blur now that's a none issue. It even feels smoother when changing gears and accelerating in the same gear or from a stop. Even the engine sounds quieter.
When I replaced the mounts I noticed removing the older ones from the carrier when removing the two nuts from the bolts the carrier or mount did not move, when I installed the new mounts I could see the carrier flex and the mount I could even flex the end by hand, I was concerned the carrier was loose yet it's not it does have flex to it at the outer ends.
It's not like driving a luxury car yet far better than it's ever been. You do still hear the engine that's their nature . I'm happy , it was well worth the work. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:07 am Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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| blues90 wrote: |
When I changed the oil last I noticed the tube to the engine is not level it's 1/4" higher on the area the stick reads also the rear of this car is a bit higher than the front and now that I changed the mounts bringing the rear up it also changed . When I changed the oil 2.5 quarts I jacked up the front and the level was 1/4" below the top mark. After I replaced the mounts it's now a about 1/8" above the half quart low mark. I also had a leak at the sump plate so I snugged the 6 nuts don't know how much I lost. To confuse myself even more I realized I only added a few OZ less than 2.5 quarts so I added some.
I guess Next oil change I'll replace the boot and pipe to engine gasket so the pipe is level . Then change the oil again. I think as long as it's above the 1/2 quart low mark I'm good. I ordered 2 quarts more that I will get the 9th of Oct . I have a bit less than 1/2 quart left right now. Maybe I'll add a bit of that just to bring it back up to 1/4" below the full mark. |
When you do you're next change, make a note of where the oil ends up on the stick. I think as long as your level is between the 2 marks on the stick you'll be fine. I'd contact either ISP West or CIP for a new filler boot, as they do get hard and will crack and leak while filling with oil.
Good to hear that the new (to you) mounts took away 75% of your vibration. I guess your old mounts were done. 
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 9:51 am Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| blues90 wrote: |
When I changed the oil last I noticed the tube to the engine is not level it's 1/4" higher on the area the stick reads also the rear of this car is a bit higher than the front and now that I changed the mounts bringing the rear up it also changed . When I changed the oil 2.5 quarts I jacked up the front and the level was 1/4" below the top mark. After I replaced the mounts it's now a about 1/8" above the half quart low mark. I also had a leak at the sump plate so I snugged the 6 nuts don't know how much I lost. To confuse myself even more I realized I only added a few OZ less than 2.5 quarts so I added some.
I guess Next oil change I'll replace the boot and pipe to engine gasket so the pipe is level . Then change the oil again. I think as long as it's above the 1/2 quart low mark I'm good. I ordered 2 quarts more that I will get the 9th of Oct . I have a bit less than 1/2 quart left right now. Maybe I'll add a bit of that just to bring it back up to 1/4" below the full mark. |
When you do you're next change, make a note of where the oil ends up on the stick. I think as long as your level is between the 2 marks on the stick you'll be fine. I'd contact either ISP West or CIP for a new filler boot, as they do get hard and will crack and leak while filling with oil.
Good to hear that the new (to you) mounts took away 75% of your vibration. I guess your old mounts were done. |
On the oil that's what I did last oil change. I just raised the front a bit so it was level just to check and it read the same. I read some where on Samba about the fill tube being level and checked mine and it was lower by 1/4" on the end the stick reads, saw the special toll in the Bentley. I don't know without doing math how much 1/4" makes in the 6" or so distance. Before I changed the mounts and I checked the level in the same spot in my garage if low I'd add to the top mark, never had an issue. Long ago I used to just pour in 3 quarts when changing the oil. Before I drove it I added just a few OZ of oil since the sump was leaking and then it was a bit more above the 1/2 quart low than after I changed the mounts.
I'm going to get a new boot and the gasket for the tube to engine and level the tube and remove the boot clean out the upper tube well then install the boot. Mine only has one clamp on the boot at the engine tube end , saw photo's of one at each end mine was never changed so I assume only one clamp was used . I was just going of ISP where they show 2.
Yes the mounts changed it a lot more than I thought they would. Should have done this years ago. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:06 am Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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I actually prefer the new style filler boot, in that it eliminates a place for a possible oil leak. You take out the upper part of the filler out, install the boot, then reinsert the upper part. Then reinstall your lower clamp. install the dip stick and you're done. Simple. The new design also eliminates the grommet on the body side that used to keep the upper part from rattling.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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blues90
Samba Member
Joined: March 14, 2009
Posts: 1912
Location: Hollywood ,CA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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| Bobnotch wrote: |
| I actually prefer the new style filler boot, in that it eliminates a place for a possible oil leak. You take out the upper part of the filler out, install the boot, then reinsert the upper part. Then reinstall your lower clamp. install the dip stick and you're done. Simple. The new design also eliminates the grommet on the body side that used to keep the upper part from rattling. |
ISP west is the only place that sells that one. CIP1 and J bugs sell the older style that would need two clamps and the grommet to prevent rattles which I've never seen. I hope the gasket is still good in the upper part , it's there yet I've never had it out. I imagine I could make one if it turns into crumbs. |
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Bobnotch
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2003
Posts: 22431
Location: Kimball, Mi
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| Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 9:29 am Post subject: Re: 73 rear engine mounts/ vibration? |
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| blues90 wrote: |
| Bobnotch wrote: |
| I actually prefer the new style filler boot, in that it eliminates a place for a possible oil leak. You take out the upper part of the filler out, install the boot, then reinsert the upper part. Then reinstall your lower clamp. install the dip stick and you're done. Simple. The new design also eliminates the grommet on the body side that used to keep the upper part from rattling. |
ISP west is the only place that sells that one. CIP1 and J bugs sell the older style that would need two clamps and the grommet to prevent rattles which I've never seen. I hope the gasket is still good in the upper part , it's there yet I've never had it out. I imagine I could make one if it turns into crumbs. |
The fill cap plate gasket is a black gasket material, or at least all of them that I've seen were. You should be able to make another out of some gasket material. It's mainly an air seal, and something to prevent metal to metal contact (wear).
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
| Tram wrote: |
| "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives." |
| Tram wrote: |
| People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed". |
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