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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:33 pm Post subject: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Yes I searched....Down to the last couple things to fix on this car. No horn. The horn tests fine. After pulling the wheel, connect a wire from the brass contact tab to a good ground. Horn sounds. Connect wire to inner steering shaft and nothing. I assume that the inner shaft has to be grounded, yes? If so, how" Would assume that there is a solid connection through the U joint and steering box, or am I on the wring track.
And if I read other posts properly, then I assume the wiring at the base of the steering column is correct (plastic body of the connector is missing, so whoever worked on it before just connected the wires. And this is part of my problem. I have a mental block on reading the late wiring diagrams. Does somebody know the correct pin outs for the connector on the left side of the column?
Thinking this may be related to the headlight dimmer issue as well. Thanks _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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KInd of a bump - what seem to see it is there is a contact ring (more like a sleeve) on the inner steering shaft itself. It APPEARS that replacement upper bearings are all metal - which would negate the need of the contact sleeve. Any input before I blow $50 on a new bearing? _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
No horn. The horn tests fine. After pulling the wheel, connect a wire from the brass contact tab to a good ground. Horn sounds. |
Good. This shows that the wiring thru the horn all the way up to that contact "ear" is good.
The next thing you need to do is install the steering wheel and make sure the contact ring at the bottom of the steering wheel maintains contact with the "ear". When the wire coming off the contact ring is grounded it should also sound the horn. If it does, you are good all the way to the horn button.
andk5591 wrote: |
Connect wire to inner steering shaft and nothing. I assume that the inner shaft has to be grounded, yes? If so, how"
Would assume that there is a solid connection through the U joint and steering box, or am I on the wring track. |
Yes. Unlike STD Beetles that had a insulating coupler between the shaft and the steering box the later years didn't have this. There should be electrical connectivity all the way thru the steering box.
Test this w/ an ohm meter. Is there continuity between the upper end of the shaft and the lower end? Is there continuity between the shaft and the steering box? Is there continuity between the steering box and the frame?
andk5591 wrote: |
Thinking this may be related to the headlight dimmer issue as well. |
There are three brown wires in the later turn signal switch assembly. Since grounding horn contact ears on the turn signal switch sounds the horn you know the brown wire for the horn connects to the horn.
The dimmer switch has a solid brown wire that connect to ground and a brown/white wire that runs to the dimmer relay "S" terminal. When you pull on the turn signal lever you bring two brass contacts together and these two separate wires are brought together; grounding the dimmer relay "S" terminal.
andk5591 wrote: |
what seem to see it is there is a contact ring (more like a sleeve) on the inner steering shaft itself. It APPEARS that replacement upper bearings are all metal - which would negate the need of the contact sleeve. Any input before I blow $50 on a new bearing? |
The upper steering shaft bearing is all metal. But there is a plastic sleeve that wedges between the bearing and the inner shaft. The reduces the play between the two. This would insulate the shaft. So the shaft should not depend on grounding thru the steering column housing. I really believe it grounds thru the steering box. _________________ AshMan40
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'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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The grounding through the shaft is what I expected. HOWEVER, what I did was grab my test light. Steering box is good ground, BUT there I get to the steering column side of the U joint, I loose it.
I would not expect the U joint to insulate, but it seems like it does. What I have also done is spray a bunch of contact cleaner down the shaft from the steering wheel side. Jiggle the column while I have an aligator clip hooked to the inner shaft and the brass contact tab and I get some weak beep.
What I am suspecting is that there is an additional grounding sleeve or something down the shaft. I really didnt want to pull the turn signal assy, but think I have to, unless I can figure out how to ground the steering shaft from the universal side. May try hose clamping a wire on that straddles the U joint and see what happens.
And yeah - on the dimmer, I first need to verify thatthe switch itself is working and also that the relay is good. Its stuck on high beam. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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baldessariclan Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016 Posts: 1374 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 7:13 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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You might want to consider using the metal style anti-rattle bushing between the steering wheel shaft and the bearing to help provide a good grounding path -- like one of these from Cip1: https://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VWC%2D111%2D953%2D535%2DD
Or an original OEM German one from BugCity: https://www.bugcity.com/shop/shop.lasso?pquery=steering+shaft+bushing
Aside from that, you could also just pull the whole steering column assembly, and then clean the u-joints and contact/connection areas at either end really well. Hope one of those ideas works out for you -- good luck! _________________ 1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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beetlenut Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009 Posts: 2983 Location: RI
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 8:21 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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I just had the same problem with the low beams not working. My high/low relay clicked and cycled with the blue high beam indicator coming on with the high beams, but no low beams when cycling down. In the process of cleaning all the grounds, I found a three wire connector below and just forward of the brake reservoir, connected to wires going down through the same hole that the two steel brake supply lines go through. I took that connector apart, cleaned all the connections, applied electrical contact grease and then I got low beams to cycle and come on when the relay was operated. _________________ scrapyards are for quitters
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Wetstuff wrote: |
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 10:43 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Check if your upper bearing provides a good path to ground. If so, the above options would be usable.
You may also want to sand down the steering shaft where it will contact the bushing/bearing so you get a good electrical contact. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:10 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Thanks all - could not find that anti rattle bushing. Gonna order a couple and what I have found its that across the U joint is where I loose my ground. But the metal bearing would take car of that as well.
On the dimmer, the switch works (tested at the connector at the column base) and my relay tests fine but no click at all. So dropping the fuse box when I get back in the shop and test there. The usual crap....wire hanging that arent going anywhere...may just be from the extra wires for the turn signal switch is it was replaced...Will find out. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 5:35 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
Thanks all - could not find that anti rattle bushing. |
The plastic ones disintegrate after a few decades.
andk5591 wrote: |
On the dimmer, the switch works (tested at the connector at the column base) and my relay tests fine but no click at all. So dropping the fuse box when I get back in the shop and test there. The usual crap....wire hanging that arent going anywhere...may just be from the extra wires for the turn signal switch is it was replaced...Will find out. |
Two tests you can conduct w/o having to pull the whole fuse box...
1) Remove the dimmer relay and identify which connection on the relay bridge is the "S" terminal spot (brown/white wire). Using your MM test the end of the "S" wire for ground when you pull on the turn signal lever. Make sure it is not permanently grounded (switch stuck closed) as this will leave you will constant ON relay and only high beams.
2) Using a small gauge jumper wire with striped ends, insert one end into the"S" terminal spot then reinsert the dimmer relay. With the headlights fully ON, ground the other end of the jumper wire to simulate pulling on the dimmer switch. The relay should click and the headlights should switch between high and low. This works as long as the brown/white wire is not constantly grounded. This confirms your dimmer relay is working. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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baldessariclan Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016 Posts: 1374 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:53 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
Thanks all - could not find that anti rattle bushing. Gonna order a couple and what I have found its that across the U joint is where I loose my ground. But the metal bearing would take car of that as well. |
On my car, I first tried one of those flexible "polymer" type anti-rattle bushings when I was reassembling my steering column (like shown below), but it wouldn't quite fit in the gap between the steering wheel shaft and inner race of the bearing -- little too big/thick.
So I switched over to the ribbed metal type (below), and got a much better fit. Note that I think the bushing's raised flange is supposed to be sandwiched between the bearing and the shoulder (on steering wheel shaft) right behind the bearing (on a standard Beetle, anyway -- not sure if Supers have the same sort of shaft/shoulder -- ??).
If the horn grounding is still sketchy, even with the metal anti-rattle bushing in place, you might then consider running a wire from the outer race of the column bearing to a known good grounding point. This assumes that you get good continuity / grounding between the inner and outer races of that column bearing, of course. _________________ 1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:41 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Dimmer was simply the wrong relay. The original was 4 pins with headlight + also feeding the relay coil on one side. The one they installed had a 5th pin that would have been used to the + to the coil. Found that by checking the pin outs on the relay socket....and of course the one used one that I tried had an internal issue....Of course. Grabbed another one and bingo!
for the horn, gonna try spraying contact cleaner from the underside of the column to see if that does anything. If I have the contact ring that I suspect is on it, I have not got too it past the bearing spraying from the top. Keep your fingers crossed. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 5:17 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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One more question - the bearing on the column is NOT wrapped in plastic. Can anyone confirm that the plastic bushing on the inside of the bearing is the contact ring? Trying to get the bearing out this morning without pulling the column wish me luck. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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baldessariclan Samba Member
Joined: October 14, 2016 Posts: 1374 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:27 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
for the horn, gonna try spraying contact cleaner from the underside of the column to see if that does anything. If I have the contact ring that I suspect is on it, I have not got too it past the bearing spraying from the top. Keep your fingers crossed. |
AFAIK, the only things supporting that upper portion of the steering shaft in Super Beetles is the metal ball bearing assembly at the upper end (in the ignition & turn signal housing), and a plastic needle bearing assembly (or plastic/nylon block bearing) at the lower end, just above the first (upper) u-joint. There is no "contact ring" (?) in between those, to the best of my knowledge.
The plastic bushing you mentioned on inside of the bearing is probably the "anti-rattle" bushing, I'm thinking. In addition to the metal and flexible plastic types I mentioned in my earlier post, there is also a rigid plastic type as well (pictured below) -- is it maybe one of those?:
In any case, to remove that upper bearing in my car, think that I had to first take off a retaining/snap ring (between outer race of bearing and ignition switch/turn signal housing), and then was able to pry the bearing out. Or I may have driven it out from behind, as I had the whole column apart at one point -- it's been a while, and my memory is a bit fuzzy on all that. I do remember the bearing being somewhat tight in the ignition switch/turn signal housing. Slipped back in easier later, once I had cleaned all of the decades-old grease, dirt, and corrosion off the bearing and housing. _________________ 1971 Standard Beetle — fairly stock / driver
baldessariclan -- often in error, never in doubt... |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 11:57 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Thats what I was afraid of. And yeah, snap ring is out an it spins in the housing, but tight on the bushing. Honestly thinking if I can get this out, I can mske a quick metal metal "bushing" from something like aluminun flashing. There is a retainer in the back that should hold it in place and that will take care if my lack of ground. What sucks is that we had the tank out and all that earlier and would have been much easier to do this at that time....Of course you are wrapping up a project and THEN discover the horn doesnt work. Thanks all. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
Dimmer was simply the wrong relay. The original was 4 pins with headlight + also feeding the relay coil on one side. The one they installed had a 5th pin that would have been used to the + to the coil. Found that by checking the pin outs on the relay socket....and of course the one used one that I tried had an internal issue....Of course. Grabbed another one and bingo! |
First make sure your 5-prong dimmer relay was actually a dimmer relay and not the more common Bosch-style SPDT relay which also has 5-prongs.
IMHO, the 5-prong dimmer relay is "functionally" the better relay compared to the standard 4-prong. It enables the "flash to pass" function. You can pull on the dimmer switch at any time and the high beams will turn ON momentarily. It can do this because it is wired into a constant 12v+ source via the #30 terminal on the relay. The US spec Beetle would not be wired properly for the 5-prong relay. You need to add a new wire from the #30 terminal of the new relay to the fuse in the fuse box that has constant 12v. This one extra wire gives you the function to flash your headlights with the quick pull of the turn signal lever. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 4:56 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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I believe that is what was in the car. Nothing at the 30 terminal. And got the horn ground fixed. Semi hack, but it works. Thanks all. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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ashman40 Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007 Posts: 15982 Location: North Florida, USA
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Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:27 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
I believe that is what was in the car. Nothing at the 30 terminal. |
Many of the 5-prong dimmer relays with the #30 terminal will not function without power to the #30. Since this is the extra terminal and a car that originally came with the 4-prong relay would not have the 5th position wired, just inserting a 5-prong dimmer relay to replace a 4-prong will not work. But if you install the extra wire you get the full function of the dimmer relay with the benefit of the "flash" function which the 4-prong didn't have.
What was the part# off the 5-prong? Here is a pic of the cover for the aftermarket 5-prong I bought many years ago. This one seems to be the most common aftermarket replacement dimmer relay.
One comment on the above relay... while it "functionally" was an improvement over a stock 4-prong dimmer relay (after adding the extra #30 wire)... the relay stopped working after only a few months. Maybe I just got a "lemon", but the quality was no where close to OE VW. _________________ AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:25 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Dont remember part number - will try to remember when I get to the shop. But it didnt work (no #30 connection) _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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bnam Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2006 Posts: 2935 Location: El Dorado Hills CA/ Bangalore, India
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 6:38 am Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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andk5591 wrote: |
Yes I searched....Down to the last couple things to fix on this car. No horn. The horn tests fine. After pulling the wheel, connect a wire from the brass contact tab to a good ground. Horn sounds. Connect wire to inner steering shaft and nothing. I assume that the inner shaft has to be grounded, yes? If so, how" Would assume that there is a solid connection through the U joint and steering box, or am I on the wring track.
And if I read other posts properly, then I assume the wiring at the base of the steering column is correct (plastic body of the connector is missing, so whoever worked on it before just connected the wires. And this is part of my problem. I have a mental block on reading the late wiring diagrams. Does somebody know the correct pin outs for the connector on the left side of the column?
Thinking this may be related to the headlight dimmer issue as well. Thanks |
The electrical path is from the brass tab on the turn signal switch to the slip ring that is under the steering wheel. From the slip ring via a wire up thru the steering wheel to the horn ring. When the horn ring is pressed down it contacts the upper brass ring on the steering wheel which then grounds thru the steering wheel and steering shaft and steering box.
If you have power all the way to the tab, then check connectivity from tab to horn ring. Perhaps the spacing between the steering housing and the steering wheel is larger than it should be I this would prevent the tab from touching the slip ring under the steering wheel which would prevent the horn ring from being powered. _________________ 1971 1302LS Convertible (RHD) owned since '74
Click to view image
1965 Karmann Ghia Coupe - under restoration
1966 Fiat 1500 Cabrio (with 1600 Twin cam)
1952 Citroen TA 11BL |
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andk5591 Samba Member
Joined: August 29, 2005 Posts: 16757 Location: State College, PA
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Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: 74 Super horn (and headlight dimmer) problem |
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Horn works now. _________________ D-Dubya Manx clone - 63 Short pan,1914.
Rosie 65 bug - My mostly stock daily driver.
Woodie 69 VW woodie (Hot VWs 7/12).
"John's car" 64 VW woodie - The first ever
Maxine 61 Cal-look bug - Cindy's daily driver.
Max - 73 standard Beetle hearse project - For sale
66 bug project - Real patina & Suby conversion
There's more, but not keeping them... |
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