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fossil
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Joined: November 22, 2011
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Location: Germany
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 Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2023 12:41 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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This is the Mercedes W 30 (150 H Coupe). A mid-engined sports coupe related to the very different looking W30 Roadster. About six of these had been built! I would love to own a model car of this, 130 H, 170 H and W30 Roadster I already own. The coupes (called "Sportlimousine" by Mercedes Benz) were built in 1934.
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Greetings from Germany
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JollieOllie
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 6:43 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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@Undis
I'm not sure if you saw the article in the "Auto Bild Klassik" magazine, June 2024. It has a nice write-up on the early Beetles discussed here. (Mind you, maybe you even wrote it. Haha.) Lots of photos too. Sorry, I don't have a copy, I was able to browse through it quickly. |
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wagen19
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Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 12:34 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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| JollieOllie wrote: |
@Undis
I'm not sure if you saw the article in the "Auto Bild Klassik" magazine, June 2024. It has a nice write-up on the early Beetles discussed here. (Mind you, maybe you even wrote it. Haha.) Lots of photos too. Sorry, I don't have a copy, I was able to browse through it quickly. |
Comment along this theme:
Car number 1, 1935-1936 V-series prototypes
What about the idea and possibility that the "mystery-car", NSU look, is a combination and new built up of the (scrapped?) zundapp-vert-front, dirty-cars windscreen+roof and weinsberg rear end built by Drauz early, mid 1934 to create in shortest time a "new" drivable drivetrain-testcar for the RDA?
Could be on the road in time in spring 1935, was prooved in Sept 1935 and the "real" V1, V2 came end of 1935, eary 1936.
I assume, the "chief" did not like the already known design elements of Zundapp and NSU for "his" new and now only one existing "official Volkswagen". But for a testdrive dummy, the mystery car was OK. No pics to the public! |
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wagen19
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Location: germany
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 2:13 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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| Undis wrote: |
Do we have any photographic proof of the first car finished and shown on 3rd July 1935?
I believe this car has been hiding in plain sight. Its photo is seen on page 71 in Barber's book. There were other photos made of this car at the same time and location. The photos are quite formal with the car looking shiny and new as you would expect the first Volkswagen to be. This car can be called body number 1 and has been generally referred to be the 1936 V3/2 which strictly speaking is not wrong but I’ll explain that later. Something that stands out in these photos are the large 17 inch wheel rims with hubcaps that were not used in the later V3 series. The tyres are distinctive Continental Ballon 4.50-17. This is a strong indication that this body is sitting on the very early type chassis. The deciding photo is on page 51 of Barber's book. It shows the interior of car with seats unlike any of the later ones and a bulge under the carpets suggesting there is a cross member under there. This was not present on later type chassis. Barber correctly identifies the first chassis style and that this is the first body but examining the details it is clear this is not the same car that is generally referred to as the V1. It is in fact the same car as seen on page 71. It is not clear however if these photos were taken during the 3rd July 1935 showing to the RDA or another time or even during meeting of 31st October and 1st November 1935 with the RDA members being able to ride in a fully functional first car fitted with the D-motor (flat twin) (page 46). One thing I’d like to propose is that it is probable the car seen by the RDA in October/November may have been already the all steel body because the expected October delivery date of the new all steel body coincides with the date of that meeting. I have no proof of this but it would be logical that the RDA were to be presented with the improved second version of the Volkswagen also featuring the more modern flat twin engine but this is open to discussion. I just want to add that body 1 (already on a later chassis) was involved in a serious accident early in 1936. There is a photo of the damaged car on page 80 of Barber's book. The body was rebuilt but the work caused a lengthy delay, in fact it was still not finished by 5th October 1936 in time for the three V3 car test drives to start as planned.
I am certain this is the car that was first finished and shown on 3rd July 1935? Note the red-on-white temporary plate IIIA-0427. The photos are quite formal with the car looking shiny and new as you would expect the first Volkswagen to be. Is this the original V1? Probably not as that code appeared later and referred to the all-steel body.
I believe this is the interior of the same car. Note several details such as the insides of the doors and the quarter windows indicating this is not the V1 but an earlier version. The seats are unlike any of the later ones and a bulge under the carpets suggesting there is a cross member under there.
Going by the Continental Ballon tyre in the front strapped down with a leather belt this is the front trunk area of the very first car before the body was reused to become the V3/2. Later the spare wheel was bolted to a mount attached to the chassis frame-head.
A rare photo of body 1 during initial tests by the Porsche team before the car became a V3 and ran the RDA test late in 1936.
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Look pic number 3, car in background, already with front bumper beside the wall, seems to be the "mystery car".
So may be as well a kind of "Zundapp-NSU-Reutter-Weinsberg-Drauz" combination, as the very first "V1.0".
So it´s quiet possible, this is the "V 1.0" and it was already finished and drivable in July 1935.
That can be the solution. |
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wagen19
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 4:44 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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| Undis wrote: |
So is there more evidence that three (plus one) cars were produced in 1935?
Barber states that the first of the cars (body 1) was finished (yet undrivable) on 3rd July 1935 when it was demonstrated to the members of the RDA at the Porsche Villa (page 39). The second body (body 2) was expected to arrive from the Daimler Benz factory in Sindelfingen at the end of September (page 40). This is interesting as on 1st June it was reported as already finished but not painted so why such a long delay? A third body in all-steel construction (body 3) expected in another month making its completion sometime in October 1935. During November 1935 the first photo of the cabriolet (body 4) version was taken at the Tubingen Market square, this means that the later two cars – the all-steel (body 3) and the cabriolet (body 4) were finished very close to each other possibly October/November 1935, likely built side by side.
What was the very first car that was finished (not yet drivable at the time) and shown on 3rd July 1935 to the RDA at the Porsche Villa?
Barber states it was the car with the small engine cover featuring five narrow cooling slots (photos on page 41). Barber and others refer to this car as the V1. I believe this is not correct. To understand this it is important to look at the styling cues and other evidence.
During February 1935 body design 3 (sketch 996) was produced showing the body style that was later used as base for the first prototypes. It shows a fastback styled body with large front and rear lids. Although it includes a proper rear window not used on actual cars, the sketch looks remarkably familiar. At the same time body design 4 (sketch 997) a notch-back sedan and body design 5 (sketch 998) convertible are produced, both also with large front lids. Shortly after, two scale models were made and photographed at the Porsche Villa (pages 35-37). Although Barber does not mention exactly when these photos were made there exist more photos from the same time and some of them show the remains of snow on the ground. This provides some proof that the scale models were made right after the body sketches sometime in March or April 1935. Afterwards two steel and wood mixed construction bodies were quickly made by the Daimler Benz factory at Sindelfingen, finished in June 1935. Those two body designs are closely based on the two scale models featuring large lids front and back with the main differences being the shape and number of air slots on the rear lid. |
My private theory is, along or after 1934, F.P. kept at least the Zundapp type 12 vert, that seems to be prooved by literature and probably additional the "dirty" NSU type 32, as well as a lot of technical Zundapp and NSU-parts.
Based on that source of cars and parts, in 1934 and early 1935, 2 "technical" cars could be created easy and quick, beside or before the "new official Volkswagen" for the government were finished, at the end of 1935.
Later than December 1935 the 2 "technical cars" were out of any interest and more a burden for the official government and F.P. Volkswagen history.
A new numbering of all ever official existing "volkswagen" prototypes was needed. But at that early times, only the new cars counts, useless prototyes and experiments were quickly forgotten.
For historians nowadays not so easy, the 90 year old truth to find out.
wagen19 |
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IIIA-0426
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Location: Feuerbacherweg 48-50
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 5:21 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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The car in the background in photo 3 appears to be a Mercedes 130H. There are some differences with respect to the NSU prototype, one being how low the front wheel arches go with respect to the front bumper. They went visibly much lower on the NSU. You can also see some other hints of features prominent on the 130H, like the hint of the Mercedes star in the correct location and the hint of a horn on the front bumper (drivers side), which the NSU did not have. But these are less visible.
The prototype we are discussing is certainly an NSU. The fact is that the photos recently shown were from a well known NSU engineer - private photos. There is also a photo of this car in the NSU archives of Audi. Moreover the number plates on the car (IIIE) are from Heilbronn, where NSU was based. Whilst there are some similarities to the front of the Zündapp cabrio, there are also differences.
No need to chop up different prototypes built for different companies. The projects were separate and the Type 60 was built from the ground up. Whilst some engineering solutions were similar, the NSU was a larger, less inexpensive car.
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wagen19
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| Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2024 6:45 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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| IIIA-0426 wrote: |
The car in the background in photo 3 appears to be a Mercedes 130H. There are some differences with respect to the NSU prototype, one being how low the front wheel arches go with respect to the front bumper. They went visibly much lower on the NSU. You can also see some other hints of features prominent on the 130H, like the hint of the Mercedes star in the correct location and the hint of a horn on the front bumper (drivers side), which the NSU did not have. But these are less visible.
The prototype we are discussing is certainly an NSU. The fact is that the photos recently shown were from a well known NSU engineer - private photos. There is also a photo of this car in the NSU archives of Audi. Moreover the number plates on the car (IIIE) are from Heilbronn, where NSU was based. Whilst there are some similarities to the front of the Zündapp cabrio, there are also differences.
No need to chop up different prototypes built for different companies. The projects were separate and the Type 60 was built from the ground up. Whilst some engineering solutions were similar, the NSU was a larger, less inexpensive car. |
You have a good point and I agree about the differences about the lower end of wheel arches, and i also had the idea of a horn. But the bumper looks very similar. We don´t know what time lies between the pics. The IIIE plate, may be the same, as that was also installed on the dirty "NSU".
May be the "mystery-car" was a bit modified to look like a 130 H.
We should especially ask the question, when NSU pulled the plug, or was forced to do so, may be, by the RDA or the government.
The contract with the RDA (government?) was underlinded 22.06.1934 and the first test drives with the type 32 were later, in Juli, August 1934. (book Jung, Reutter 356, p. 52),
K. Rabe states, early 1935 there were 4 V 1 project cars. As I understand Undis, he thinks, there are 2 too much at that moment. I think, that can eventually be explained with the existence of 2 modified cars, based on the Zundapp-vert and the dirty "NSU". I also have the idea, the dirty one was eventually planned as NSU, but realized and driven under F.P. ownership. Similar as very much later with the NSU-VW K 70.
My ideas can be wrong, of course, but they could also explain some intersting questions. Correct me with facts please, I think in 1935 NSU was officially no longer active in their project with F.P.. |
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wagen19
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| Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 7:46 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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The prototype we are discussing is certainly an NSU. The fact is that the photos recently shown were from a well known NSU engineer - private photos. There is also a photo of this car in the NSU archives of Audi. Moreover the number plates on the car (IIIE) are from Heilbronn, where NSU was based. Whilst there are some similarities to the front of the Zündapp cabrio, there are also differences.
No need to chop up different prototypes built for different companies. The projects were separate and the Type 60 was built from the ground up. Whilst some engineering solutions were similar, the NSU was a larger, less inexpensive car.
Found this,
not knowing if it´s all true and can be prooved.
https://www.traumautoarchiv.de/html/5156.html
Der Grundstein für den später erfolgreichsten Wagen der Welt wurde bereits 1933/34 gelegt. Ferdinand Porsche hatte sich 1931 nach Arbeiten bei diversen anderen Firmen (Austro-Daimler, Daimler-Benz) in Stuttgart selbstständig gemacht. Hier entwickelte er zunächst den Typ 12 für Zündapp und kurz danach den Typ 32 für NSU. Dieses Fahrzeug war dem späteren Käfer bereits recht ähnlich, kam jedoch mangels Geld bei NSU nicht zur Produktionsreife. Etwa zur gleichen Zeit kamen bei der NSDAP und Adaolf Hitler Pläne für eine Volksmotorisierung, dem berühmten Kraft-durch-Freude-Wagen, auf. Da Porsche zu dieser Zeit gerade eine Audienz beim Führer wegen einer Unterstützung des Auto Union Rennwagens hatte und überdies mit dem Typ 32 einen vielversprechenden Prototypen vorweisen konnte, bekam dieser den Auftrag, einen "Volkswagen" zu entwickeln. Vorgabe war dabei, ein Fahrzeug zu bauen, dass 100 km/h mit einem Verbrauch von ca. 7,0 Liter fahren konnte, Platz für zwei Erwachsene und drei Kinder bot und nicht mehr als 1.000,- Reichsmark kosten sollte. Am 22.06.1934 wurde ein Vertrag geschlossen, dessen wesentliche Vorgabe der Bau eines Prototyps innerhalb von 10 Monaten war. Auf Basis des NSU Typ 32 wurden daher bis 1935 die zwei Prototypen V1 und V2 konstruiert, gebaut und Probe gefahren. Später wurde der V 3 einer ausführlichen Erprobung über 50.000 Kilometer unterzogen, die erfolgreich verlief. Der VW Käfer war geboren.
So, for me, it´s still interesting, when, how, from whom the Zundapp project was finished, from Fritz Ludwig Neumeyer, 1875-1935, or Hans Friedrich Neumeyer, 1903-1973, or the government.
Info: in 1936 Zundapp (alone?) got an order from Reichsluftfahrtminiterium to produce an aircraft engine for a "Volksflugzeug".
In 1924 Fritz Ludwig Neumeyer purchased two british Rover 8 with an aircooled 2 cylinder flat enginge. He has planned a licence production.
(We can als think about the Austin seven, the "British model T" and these licence productions in europe.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_8
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritz_Ludwig_Neumeyer
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Friedrich_Neumeyer
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%Bcndapp
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksflugzeug
NSU (and all other motorcycle companies in germany):
The government stimulated activly also the motorcycle market. For small motorbikes below 200 ccm, no tax and no driving licence was required.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSU_201_ZD_Pony
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSU_Quick
The "Volkswagen" became a prestige project, driven by the government, as well as the german autobahn.
The succcess in international races with Mercedes Benz and Auto-Union race cars and their engineers is unforgettable.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-Union-Rennwagen
Last edited by wagen19 on Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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wagen19
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| Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 11:37 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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| IIIA-0426 wrote: |
The car in the background in photo 3 appears to be a Mercedes 130H. There are some differences with respect to the NSU prototype, one being how low the front wheel arches go with respect to the front bumper. They went visibly much lower on the NSU. You can also see some other hints of features prominent on the 130H, like the hint of the Mercedes star in the correct location and the hint of a horn on the front bumper (drivers side), which the NSU did not have. But these are less visible.
The prototype we are discussing is certainly an NSU. The fact is that the photos recently shown were from a well known NSU engineer - private photos. There is also a photo of this car in the NSU archives of Audi. Moreover the number plates on the car (IIIE) are from Heilbronn, where NSU was based. Whilst there are some similarities to the front of the Zündapp cabrio, there are also differences.
No need to chop up different prototypes built for different companies. The projects were separate and the Type 60 was built from the ground up. Whilst some engineering solutions were similar, the NSU was a larger, less inexpensive car. |
Please have a look here and at "proper NSU" and your comment is welcome. The following source, I found today.
https://www.volkswagen-group.com/de/volkswagen-chr...trie-17353 |
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wagen19
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Posts: 208
Location: germany
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| Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2024 5:33 am Post subject: Re: The 1935-1936 V-series prototypes |
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| wagen19 wrote: |
| IIIA-0426 wrote: |
The car in the background in photo 3 appears to be a Mercedes 130H. There are some differences with respect to the NSU prototype, one being how low the front wheel arches go with respect to the front bumper. They went visibly much lower on the NSU. You can also see some other hints of features prominent on the 130H, like the hint of the Mercedes star in the correct location and the hint of a horn on the front bumper (drivers side), which the NSU did not have. But these are less visible.
The prototype we are discussing is certainly an NSU. The fact is that the photos recently shown were from a well known NSU engineer - private photos. There is also a photo of this car in the NSU archives of Audi. Moreover the number plates on the car (IIIE) are from Heilbronn, where NSU was based. Whilst there are some similarities to the front of the Zündapp cabrio, there are also differences.
No need to chop up different prototypes built for different companies. The projects were separate and the Type 60 was built from the ground up. Whilst some engineering solutions were similar, the NSU was a larger, less inexpensive car. |
Please have a look here and at "proper NSU" and your comment is welcome. The following source, I found today.
https://www.volkswagen-group.com/de/volkswagen-chr...trie-17353 |
Thinking about the number and kind of possible "undercover V1-prototypes" 1934-35:
There can be more of them. Eventually there was a further somehow Zundapp-NSU-based prototype. But also may be a number of V1-prototypes, for ex, hidden under complete MB 130 H bodies seems to be possible.
F.P. had a good connection to the chief and he to Jakob Werlin, Sindelfingen. After the RDA-contract from 22.06.1934, there were much more options.
"Modern" example: https://www.porsche-transaxle.de/versuchsfahrzeuge-studien-und-prototypen/
We can also think about the RDA, about the persons there, how they worked together, or against each other. Who got big money from the government for the race cars, LSR-vehicles, motorcycles, airplanes and so on, beginning 1933? |
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