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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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 Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:20 am Post subject: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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This is my first post. I just received my 1971 Karmann Ghia Vert. Unfortunately it is not what I expected. I now find myself with a project car rather than a ready to enjoy topless beauty. It will need a total paint job and a total tune up. I'm tackling the engine work on my own.
Right now I am concerned that the crankshaft pulley seems to be rubbing on something. When I turn the belt manually, I hear a metal on metal rubbing noise. Does not seem normal to me. There is no discernible play in the crank shaft pulley. The rubbing is not loud but more of a very soft rubbing noise. I want to remove the pulley to see what's going on behind it. Is there anything I should know before doing this? What's the process to removing the crank shaft pulley?
Thanks for any advice. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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Welcome to The Samba!
Who doesn't love enjoying a topless beauty? 
Since it needs paint, inspect the lower third of the car thoroughly to ensure that it's worthy of any expenditures before you dive in too far.
From underneath the car, look up under the bottom of the engine & see if it has an aftermarket oil pump that might be interfering with the engine tin. If not, you might be able to gently pry the tin back off the pulley.
You will need to remove the breast plate before you can get the pulley out, & you need to use your puller in the rectangular slots in the pulley to avoid destroying the pulley.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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Sounds like you bought this sight unseen... not a smart move.
Is the pulley stock or aftermarket?
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:43 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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Thank you for the welcome and the quick reply.
I only "suspect" it's rubbing on something? I can't see well enough behind the pulley to spot any evidence of rubbing, just noise. Is it possible that the noise is normal? (I doubt that)
Sounds like pulling the crank shaft pulley is more involved than I can tackle on my own at this time as I don't have a puller.
The car has already had both rocker sections completely replaced with new metal including new stiffeners. Structurally, the car is sound. The paint job is just totally a mess. Orange peel from one end to the other. Large drips. The guy who painted it obviously had no experience. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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There's (2) M6 cheese head screws behind the pulley had hold the sheetmetal to the case. Also it's possible it's touching the oil pump cover.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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It is a stock pulley. The entire car is pretty much stock.
Yes, I bought the car from photos and a very detailed website showing the entire restoration process. The restoration was very extensive and looked very professional. But as an untrained person, the problems did not show up. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:57 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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What did the seller say when you told them the pictures did not accurately show the condition?
Was it a business or private party?
Can you post some pictures?
If the paint is less than represented then don't assume any of the other work was done to a high level.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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Sometimes the pulley will rub on the pulley tin, the piece screwed to the case. Look at the little pieces of metal on either side of the pulley.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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I tried to use a flash light and a mirror to look behind the crankshaft pulley but it is such a tight space that I really cant tell what I'm looking at. I jacked up the car and crawled under and I see no signs of anything rubbing underneath. It does have all the tin around the engine and the sound is at the pulley. I'll have to get a puller and remove it.
Oddly, I see no scrapes on the pulley wheel, and no metal dust or filings? Is it possible that the noise is coming from the crankshaft? The engine is running ok after warming up, but it does not idle on it's own when cold. I'm going through the tune up procedures one at a time and trying not to bite off more than I can chew.
As to the question about who the seller is, I don't think it would be appropriate to mention names on this site. I would rather stay on subject. I will likely be a frequent flyer for help as I work to make this car into my "Dream" car. It's bad enough to know I allowed myself to get burned. I will say, he is a business and I wonder how well he sleeps at night?? Enough said. I will try to post some photos, but I'm new to the site, and I'm an old dog trying to learn one new trick at a time! haha.
Thank you for all the advice. |
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 76935
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
| I would rather stay on subject. |
Understood... so let move forward.
To remove the pulley, first remove the 30mm bolt. Then use 2 large screwdrivers between the pulley and case and lever the pulley off. Be careful not to bend the pulley.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
Member #1009
#BlueSquare |
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didget69
Samba Member
Joined: July 22, 2004
Posts: 4927
Location: Raleigh, North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:03 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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Get yourself on of these as well...
https://m.barnesandnoble.com/p/volkswagen-super-be...gLAWvD_BwE
bnc
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I never found the need to impress people with any mechanic certifications, trophies or track wins... unless it was for Mom to post on the refrigerator door. |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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Thank you.
Yes I have the Orange Bentley book as well as the Muir book. I'm working my way along slowly. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
As to the question about who the seller is, I don't think it would be appropriate to mention names on this site. I would rather stay on subject. I will likely be a frequent flyer for help as I work to make this car into my "Dream" car. It's bad enough to know I allowed myself to get burned. I will say, he is a business and I wonder how well he sleeps at night?? |
You need to address this in their feedback so other members/potential buyers don't fall prey to someone that's taking advantage of people.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=14
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11004
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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It's not rubbing underneath, but from up top.
Standing up looking down at the front of the pulley (front meaning the section close to the case) you can see there are two indents in the tin that the wheel passes through. Especially on reproduction tins they can get twisted and rub slightly against the pulley without leaving and real evidence. It makes one hell of a din. If I try looks even remotely close use a screwdriver to twist it away and gain obvious clearance and then start it up and see of the noise is gone.
This is the easiest fix. So try it before you start yanking parts.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1956 Ghia
1959 SO-23 Westfalia
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Marcdeb wrote: |
As to the question about who the seller is, I don't think it would be appropriate to mention names on this site. I would rather stay on subject. I will likely be a frequent flyer for help as I work to make this car into my "Dream" car. It's bad enough to know I allowed myself to get burned. I will say, he is a business and I wonder how well he sleeps at night?? |
You need to address this in their feedback so other members/potential buyers don't fall prey to someone that's taking advantage of people.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewforum.php?f=14
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I will leave feedback when my dealings with this person are complete. At this point, I'm hoping he will step up and make good on this deal some how. Just to be clear, he is on The Samba, but the car was not advertised on Samba. |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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| Braukuche wrote: |
It's not rubbing underneath, but from up top.
Standing up looking down at the front of the pulley (front meaning the section close to the case) you can see there are two indents in the tin that the wheel passes through. Especially on reproduction tins they can get twisted and rub slightly against the pulley without leaving and real evidence. It makes one hell of a din. If I try looks even remotely close use a screwdriver to twist it away and gain obvious clearance and then start it up and see of the noise is gone.
This is the easiest fix. So try it before you start yanking parts. |
Thanks, this is very helpful. I see at the bottom left front edge of the wheel, the clearance gets very tight but the area that is likely touching is further down at the very bottom. I tried your suggestion but I had no success getting a larger clearance. I even tried loosening the screws for the adjacent tin that is attached to the center tin in question, and then used a hammer to hit the screwdriver - no success. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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| Marcdeb wrote: |
When I turn the belt manually, I hear a metal on metal rubbing noise.
Thanks for any advice. |
First, Welcome to thesamba!!!!!!!
Second, my apologies for others who are so eager to criticize a vehicle sight unseen and point out possible wrong doings immediately.
We all make, have made or will make decisions that we later regret..... Relax, it's only money!
About the pulley, stop before doing any work.
I quoted a portion of your post indicating you are rotating the engine using the belt.
The problem with this is the alternator is turning AND the cooling fan attached to it.
Step one is to get the lug nut wrench and a screw driver.
Following the sreps in the owners manual to install a new fan belt, remove the belt. To do this you remove the outer portion of the Alternator (Generator) pulley. Note where the shims are placed as you remove the nut.
Once removed, spin the Alternator pulley by hand, the odds are high that the rubbing is in the cooling fan assembly.
The paint?
Is the paint a single stage paint or a base coat/ clear coat system?
Orange peel can often be sanded out with a gentle careful wet sand process. It will be good to know the paint system though. Is the peel in the color coat or the clear coat..... if any. ???
Keep in mind, many new cars come with some level of orange peel from the factory. How bad is yours?
Orange peel paint, while less than ideal isn't a death blow. I'd over look the paint for now and drive the car.
Really get a sense for what you purchased before investing more money and time.
If you love it, go ahead, strip it and paint it.
If you are finding massive problems and have serious buyers remorse, sell it, maybe at a loss, maybe not.
Anyway, realize that you have a Ghia Vert!! Others should be so lucky! Congrats! Go for a ride, no need to wipe that stupid smile off of your face!
As mentioned, do post photos, it will help us solve problems and to answer questions as they arise....... and they will.
Wise move getting the Bentley Manual, it will become your buddy as you dive into this car.
https://www.amazon.com/Volkswagen-Beetle-Karmann-Official-Service/dp/0837616239
[/quote]
Again, a hearty WELCOME and advice to ignore online naysayers, it is amazingly easy to be one in an online forum for some reason.
Good for you for so quickly calling for a halt to it and to get back on topic!
Link to owners manual.......
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/manuals/8_70ghia.php
Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos
Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert |
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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[quote="djkeev"]
| Marcdeb wrote: |
When I turn the belt manually, I hear a metal on metal rubbing noise.
First, Welcome to thesamba!!!!!!!
About the pulley, stop before doing any work.
I quoted a portion of your post indicating you are rotating the engine using the belt.
The problem with this is the alternator is turning AND the cooling fan attached to it.
Step one is to get the lug nut wrench and a screw driver.
Following the sreps in the owners manual to install a new fan belt, remove the belt. To do this you remove the outer portion of the Alternator (Generator) pulley. Note where the shims are placed as you remove the nut.
Once removed, spin the Alternator pulley by hand, the odds are high that the rubbing is in the cooling fan assembly.
Dave |
Thank you for the help and words of encouragement Dave. I have the belt off. I'm turning only the crank case pulley. The generator and fan are not the problem. "Braukuche" is correct about the lower front tin. I'm relieved that it's only that. I feared worse. But so far I have not been able to correct the problem. The tin is in front of the pulley and I'm not able to get tools in position.
I will reply to your other comments on my next reply. I'm trying to post photos. |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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Marcdeb
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2019
Posts: 3032
Location: Vermont
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| Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2019 7:24 am Post subject: Re: Crank Shaft pulley rubbing on engine tin. |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Second, my apologies for others who are so eager to criticize a vehicle sight unseen and point out possible wrong doings immediately.
We all make, have made or will make decisions that we later regret..... Relax, it's only money!
The paint?
Is the paint a single stage paint or a base coat/ clear coat system?
Orange peel can often be sanded out with a gentle careful wet sand process. It will be good to know the paint system though. Is the peel in the color coat or the clear coat..... if any. ???
Really get a sense for what you purchased before investing more money and time.
If you love it, go ahead, strip it and paint it.
If you are finding massive problems and have serious buyers remorse, sell it, maybe at a loss, maybe not.
Anyway, realize that you have a Ghia Vert!! Others should be so lucky! Congrats! Go for a ride, no need to wipe that stupid smile off of your face!
As mentioned, do post photos, it will help us solve problems and to answer questions as they arise....... and they will.
Dave |
The paint is a color coat only, no clear coat. I added a bunch of photos. the photos on the sellers restoration site show none of these flaws. The restoration site was very positive with great selective photography. I'm sure some of you here might have spotted some of these issues, but I'm not an expert and unfortunately, I was totally trusting of this individual's ability to do quality work.
Besides the heavy orange peel, there is lots of drips, and uneven filler. It's not just the paint, the prep work is just as bad. Both rocker sections were completely cut out and replaced which was a big plus for me. However the drivers side in particular is not positioned correctly. The drivers side door sill will not fit as there is not enough clearance below the door bottom. In the photos you can see that the rocker section is lifted to make room for the jack point. I've had 2 body shops look at the car and they said there's a lot of work to be done to correct these issues. It came with bumpers loose out of place. There is yellow over spray on the bottom and back of the front bumper. The spot welds on the bottom of the rockers has not been ground smooth and looks terrible.
Engine wise, I have not been able to evaluate it completely as it has not been tuned up. I could not get any power in 2nd gear and my wife said there was flames shooting out of the exhaust when I drove it into the garage. I live on a hill and it barely crawled up the hill. Luckily the drive home from the truck drop off was only half a mile. I'm doing a tune up one step at a time as I educate myself.
Our contract was for a complete car with exception of: Radio, Top Install, Rear seat, and Carpet. Basically the interior and top was my responsibility. But parts are missing such as the rear seat back supports at the edge of the wheel wells.
If I was buying a project, fine. But I paid $22,000 for a "Restored Car" that was supposed to be ready to drive. Yes, I'm embarrassed to admit it. I am still communicating with the seller and I'm hoping he will step up and do right by this mess. ?? The one thing I know is that I paid way too much for what I received.
I do love these cars, so in 2 weeks the car is going to an expert who restores show quality Porsche cars. I've seen his work first hand, and looked at several of his restorations. He takes great pride in his work and values his reputation. Until then, I'm keeping the car hidden in my garage.
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