Help with Rebel wiring harness

[zanderk_98]

Writing a new post to ask for help with my wiring dilemma. I've got a nicely restored manx replica buggy that needs electrical sorted out. I'm using the Rebel universal VW harness & just can't for the life of me sort out the brakes & turn signal wiring.

If anyone is in the Albany, NY area & could offer help in person or could recommend a professional who can help, I'd be grateful as apparently it has me out of ideas.

I've got the engine/charging/ignition part working flawlessly. The headlights & dimmer work as designed. The horn circuit is fine. I just literally can't figure out the turn signals & brake light.

I've worked with the guys at Rebel (who have been 110% awesome in support). I've tried 2 different turn signal switches. I've tried 3 different 'trailer adapters'. I've sorted out ground wires (due to the fiberglass body) so many times I've lost count. I'm really just frustrated at this point that I don't know what else to do but ask for help. The buggy has been basically done for a year & half & I'm yet to get it on the road due to turn signal problems.

[Dale M.]

First off what does Rebel show as wiring diagram and what type of flasher are you using, also are you trying to use same bulb filament for stop and turn..,. Because stock VW uses separate bulbs (filament) for stop and turn...So any aftermarket configuration may be quite different as how it provided...

Is turn signal switches stock VW or aftermarket...

Two devices that people have been successful with are...

http://www.signaldynamics.com/tri-star-turn-signal-to-brake-light-conversion-module/

Or a hand assembled relay assembly that so far I have never has anyone report a failure if wired correctly...

Both of these solutions allow you to use *SAME* filament in a bulb as stop/turn signal...

Trailer adapters are dismal and poor at best... Also if using LEDS you probably need special electronic flasher or load resistors at LED elements...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
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All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[zanderk_98]

To answer Dale's questions, the flasher is whatever comes installed in the Rebel harness. It doesn't appear to be the source of my issue. My turn signal switch is an EMPI 98-95776-B (replacement of original VW type). My front turn signals are essentially the ones shown at JBugs as 113953041J for 1964-69 Beetles and use (1) 1157 bulb with 2 elements - 1 for parking, 1 for turn signal. My rear brake light housings are 1965 Ford Mustang that again use (1) 1157 bulb with 2 elements - 1 for parking, 1 for brake/turn.

In a separate thread for help with this, I believe Dale already sent me the diagram using the (4) 30 amp relays. I purchased relays, wired as shown, and got the closest I ever came to having the system work correctly. At 1 point, the relay set up allowed me to get brakes & rear turn signals to function. The only issue I was having was the brake signal was also causing both front turn signals to illuminate brightly. Even had a friend at work make up a diode to install into the system try to block the brake signal from going to the front end but never got to the point of trying that. I think 1 od the 4 relays in test mock-up might have failed before that & everything went haywire again.

At this point, I'm considering getting some sort of parking light assembly that I can add to the front fenders to separate the parking from turn (although I think it will look unprofessional) as well as modifying the rear brake light housing with a separate socket so those signals are split too.

[jspbtown]

Are the bodies of your rear mustang lights grounded?

If so how?

Same for your front light housings.

The part number you listed for your front lights (113953041J) say that it is a single filament.

I searched the part number for your turn signal and came up with nothing.

[zanderk_98]

First off - thanks to any & all who reply here... This is the best place in the world to get info/help.

To jspbtown - yes, the housings are grounded. On both rear housings I have BOTH a ground wire from one of the mountings studs (which could have been suspect earlier in this process) AND since soldered a ground directly to the replacement sockets. I should mention that the rear sockets I originally started were part of the reproduction assemblies along with pigtails from Scott Drake. The pigtails were garbage quality so during troubleshooting I ripped out the cheap pressed-in sockets, purchased standard replacement sockets for an 1157 bulb & soldered a ground wire directly to the sockets. Both rear taillight housings & soldered-on socket grounds run to a bus bar that I have mounted under the drivers side rear. The bus bar then runs a 10 gage wire direct to battery negative.

For the front light housings are only 'similar' to the JBugs part number I provided. They are original VW & the sockets in them have factory terminals for parking, turn, and ground. Only reason I say they are similar to the JBugs part is I ordered those assemblies to get the replacement amber lenses & chromed pot metal covers, I tossed the cheaply made socket bases as they are for signal filament & super cheap junk. Both front housings have a ground wire that mounts to a hole I drilled & tapped in the front axle beam, 1 per side. That location is also where I grounded each headlight, 1 left, 1 right.

Lastly, I have a typo in the part number for my EMPI turn signal switch. I accidentally put an 'extra' 7... Correct part is 98-9576-B. Sorry for the confusion.

[Dale M.]

The number you supplied for turn signal switch comes up as a engine case... Do you mean...

EMPI 98-9539-B VW Type 1 BUG BEETLE 1968-70 Turn Signal Switch

https://www.amazon.com/98-9539-B-BEETLE-1968-70-Si...7054502896

And NOT this one..

https://www.ebay.com/i/230908600413?rt=nc&_trk...%3D2386202


Also does Rebel try to wire stop lights through turn signal switch?

You are chasing you tail here.... If turn signals work alone (no brakes applied) and stop lights works correct with turn signals non functioning (in neutral position) the whole problem is how system differentiates how bulb is illuminated in each different situation... Turn or stop ...

Since you are using a single filament in a dual filament bulb (1157) the problem is either you have bad converters or miswired relay system...

As for turn signal switch it is simply same as a center off three way toggle switch ( on-off-on)...

IF Rebel uses a three prong flasher or two prong without pilot lamp ... Power is supplied from fuse to one prong of flasher, output of flasher goes to common wire to turn signal switch (Black/White/Green) from turn signal switch to left side bulbs should be a Black/White wire, for right side bulbs should be a Black/Green wire... Third prong of flasher goes to pilot lamp...

If you distill it down it is as simple as sketch below...

Where complication lies is when you add converter or relays... IF socket assemblies have working bulbs an good grounds, you are overlooking something so simple it should be obvious but you are not seeing it... By the number of switches and relays and converters you have tried, I would guess problem may lie elsewhere than at point of "conversion"...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[EVfun]

It sounds like your issue comes down to the combining of rear brake lights and Turn signals into a single filament. VW quit doing that on stock bugs in 1962 so many here just aren't familiar with the combined system. Dale posted one schematic and I use a closely related one in my buggy. Mine combines the rear brake and turn, and also combines the front park and turn lamps. If you have dedicated front signals just delete the front/park connection in this circuit. If you are using a 2 terminal flasher and the stock Bug speedometer you can connect the dash light to the L terminal of the flasher.

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[zanderk_98]

To Dale's questions-

1) My signal switch is very similar to the 1968-70 one posted in the Amazon link for. I am positive my part number is correct as I still have the original paperwork & wiring diagram that came with it & both show it as 98-9576-B. I purchased it approx 3 years ago after finding some of the tiny internal spring inside the original VW switch were toast after sitting exposed to elements for at least 10 years.

2) I do not believe the Rebel harness set tries to the run the stop lights through the turn signal switch. I believe the flasher supplied with their harness is a 3-prong design.

To Dale & EVfun - I know I'm chasing my tail... I may be 110% blind to the most obvious thing as this point as I've gone over this problem literally like 50X. I knew electrical would be a hassle & even though at one point in my career I did soldering/electrical wiring & know diagrams pretty darn well, this confuses the heck out of me. Mainly BECAUSE it's so simple. I'm astounded it didn't work perfectly the 1st time & ever since I'm probably compounding my errors.

To EVfun - I agree that it comes down mostly to trying to get 1 bright filament in the rear bulb to do 2 functions. I actually also have the diagram you posted & tried wiring the 4 relays in that configuration as well. Had mixed results like with Dale's relay schematic. Both schematics are very similar but I found your's more intuitive.

Any suggestions for what to try next? I'm thinking drill out the tail light housings for a 2nd socket. Use (1) 1157 to function with the dim filament as parking lights & the bright filament as turn signal. Then use the 2nd socket's bright filament to function only as brake signal. If those functions are separate & work correctly, I think I can then make the fronts work as I want.

[EVfun]

[zanderk_98]

I say 'mixed results' because again I agree that wiring should be repeatable. What I mean by 'mixed' is exactly not repeatable. I'd get 1 thing working, then for unexplainable reason something else would stop working. I'd get brake signal working & turn would stop. I'd focus on getting turn signals to blink & I'd get them to blink 'fast'. To me 'fast' was likely a bad ground so I'd chase grounds. When I resolved grounding, the turn signals would blink at proper speed but I'd loose brake. Then I tired wiring in the relay set up. Got that working where brakes & turn signals seemed to be correct, stop fo the night only to find it behaved differently the next morning.

All this is why I"m reaching out for help, desperate for solutions. Willing to admit I can't find the forest through all the trees. I'd turn the project to a professional if I could find someone in the local NY capital region area interested in solving this.

I can handle rust repair, welding, engine rebuilds, fiberglass repair, paint & body, but my failure at the simplest wiring has my wishing I never started this project - almost. Keeping the faith that someday I'll get it figured out & that 1st drive in a buggy I did 100% myself will be great satisfaction. At the moment, that seems unattainable.

My only constraints at this point is being relatively fixed in the fender-mount turn signals & mustang tail lights as all the body & paint work was done by fall 2017.

[Dale M.]

OK my mistake of switch part number, might have entered wrong number in initial search, subsequence search actually comes up as correct number and switch... But no matter it does not change how switch functions...

I'm sort of with EVfun, we have some different way to meet same goals but like him I am confused by your statement of what all you have done and your "limited" success.....

If your turn signals function as turn signals (forget brake lights for a moment) then your problem is not "turn signals"..

If you stop lights work as "stop lights" (forget turn signals for the moment).... the stop light circuit is not the problem...

Problem is how you combine them!

IF you use a quality adapter/converter or either EVfun's or my combining relay circuits they will work... PERIOD... I have 38 years of wiring things as I am retired telecommunications technician, I have worked in relay system and electronic switching system, fiber optics, microwave and various less exotic stuff....

In all the years my relay system has been out there only once did I have a person come back on me to say it didn't work... I had him check his wiring again and sure enough he had made a mistake....

You seem to be doing the same mistake repeatedly and not even realizing it....

My best claim to fame was when I wired my buggy I designed and hand made all the looms and wired ever component and everything worked first try, no blow fuses, no lamps that did not light, no smoke, engine started and alternator charged... And today 18 years later, not one failure other then burnt out light bulb... I don't believe in "limited success"....

I am sorry you are not seeing the problem and we can't do anything but advice because there is miles of fiber optic and switches and data links and servers between your computer device or cell phone and my screen we can only rely on what you tell us...

Your solution may be to ditch VW turn signal switch and go after market..

(colors not always consistent-use color diagram included with switch)

Just get metal body unit and not cheap chrome plated plastic unit...

Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.

"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ...

[joem32380]

did this ever get sorted out? i remember following it, then life kept me away from the samba.

[didget69]

[Dale M.]

[EVfun]

There is also this electronic option. It will work with LED or regular bulbs. The flasher is built in and it has a timer based self-cancel function. It operates with a couple of momentary push button switches. A few states require self-canceling turn signals (WA is one, never seen it enforced though.)
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