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74 Thing
Samba Member
Joined: September 02, 2004
Posts: 7390
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 Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:21 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| I have a feeling that will be in the 12s soon with some seat time and tire pressure changes. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:12 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| 74 Thing wrote: |
| I have a feeling that will be in the 12s soon with some seat time and tire pressure changes. |
I agree - 12s comin' up. JPaull really knows what he is doing and the car pulls like a freight train coming off the line.
On the question of slicks/drag radials/street tires, I think a little wheel spin is a good thing. Slicks and drag radials have little or no-spin and are good for the quickest et's but not necessarily for the drivetrain. There is so little "give" in these that I believe at least one of the M/T drag radials is for automatics only.
Since transaxles and transmissions are so dang expensive, I favor roll-racing, but I do want to know what my cars can do from a dig as well! |
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rugblaster
Samba Member
Joined: March 31, 2016
Posts: 1170
Location: San Angelo, Texas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:18 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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This is where it starts getting tougher to run quicker and faster. Each tenth harder than the previous one..... Less weight, more rpm, harder launches, more compression, more air, more fuel, different fuel, it's fun though. Have fun.
_________________
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'09 MB E350 '18 MB E400, '65 Plymouth Valiant convertible and a '19 Ford F250 King Ranch (nicer, but dirty, farm truck)
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TCU ......GO FROGS!!!!!! |
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Erik G
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Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13270
Location: Tejas!
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4863
Location: Harmony, PA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:13 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| [email protected] wrote: |
A launch limiter was the single most improvement I made to the Super for bracket racing. A 1-2 tenths difference in 60ft. time can make, or break an e.t. by 2-4 tenths of a second. Even if you’re not bracket racing, anything that can be done to make a variable more consistent/repeatable can then be “set”, and it’s easier to see the changes of something else. |
Great points. When you say "Launch Limiter" are you talking 2-step? Maybe give a link to something that is similar to what you use. |
Yes, a 2-step. First off, if you are going to start bracket racing, check the class/track rules if a 2-step is allowed. A lot of times lower level street classes do NOT allow them.
I don’t really have a link to what I have in the Super because it was a Radio Shack mad scientist project because I didn’t have the money for all the analog 6AL add ons. It was basically a normally closed/open relay that directed connection between a top rpm MSD chip, and an adjustable resistance rheostat. The old analog MSD rpm chips were simply different ohm resistors. I had a little voltmeter to measure the ohms of the rheostat, and adjusted it to the desired rpm from an ohm to rpm conversion chart. I used the e-brake to stage the car, and I used the switch that turned the warning light on/off that the later VW’s had to ground the relay that switched the limiters. I basically staged with the e-brake, and flat footed the accelerator pedal upon the first yellow tree light in which the 2-step launch limiter was engaged. Then when I lowered the e-brake handle to leave, it returned the rpm limit to the default top rpm. The switch would be open upon the brake lever being down, and closed to ground upon raising the handle, and was used as a ground.
A 6AL-2 now has the 2-step built in, and all you have to do is turn some dials for rpm adjustments, but you need to add/remove power with a different wire coming out of the box instead of adding/removing a ground. You could add a little micro switch under your e-brake handle that you could connect to a normally open/closed 5 prong relay. Have the ignition wire that would have originally went to the coil, but now goes to turn on the ignition box, actuate the relay to close using the micro switch as the ground on common terminals 85, and 86. Then connect a 12v source to the 30 power terminal of the relay. Leave the 87 terminal that would normally make contact with the relay closed with no connection. Then connect the MSD 2-step wire to the 87a terminal that would make contact when the relay would be open. With your e-brake down closing the micro switch to ground closing the relay, this will have the 30 terminal connecting the 87 empty terminal. Then when you raise the e-brake, the micro switch will open to release the ground, opening the relay to connect the 30 terminal to the 87a “open” terminal.
If you use a line lock, you could use the closed button connected to the same 5 prong relay. Have the 12v source to the relay 85, and use the 86 with the line lock button to ground to close the relay. Then have your 30 terminal to 12v, and the 2-step power wire on the 87 terminal that would make connection with the relay closed. Then when the line lock button is released, the relay opens removing the 12v from the 2-step wire.
To me, this made tuning MUCH more productive. You could then set your launch rpm to a consistent number/variable to see the effect of tire pressure. Once you had a good idea of tire pressure, that would be the constant variable, and you could then adjust the launch rpm.
I never got around to changing out the rubber torsion grommets on the Super to urethane ones, so it would get a little springplate “hop” with the tires at “driving” pressures. The hop was significantly reduced (like letting air out of a basket ball) around 22psi, but any lower than 20 did nothing else more positive. I then adjusted the launch rpm based on the temp, and how much juice was sprayed down on the track. I pretty much left the tires at 22, and launch rpm at 3800. If it was a Halloween event when it was cold I maybe went 20, and 3600. The pic in my avatar was on a warm Summer day where they had sprayed the bejesus out of the track, and I had the tires at 22, and the limiter up to 4300 rpm to keep it from bogging too bad. |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Match dowel it with 11\32 dowels.
Dan |
Any good tutorials you could recommend? |
Match doweling is not for the novice. I believe modok is capable of doing this along with GBE. I have had bergs do many a crank and flywheel for me without any problems, much cheaper than wedgemate and almost as good. I will never again buy a new or used crank that I can not get the dowels out of the crank. I have been burned.
I have never done it but I understand well the advantages. Ray Vallero also did it but he is no longer with us. I believe the industry has dropped the ball on the drilling the two parts separately. Here is Bergs description of how it is done.
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=4_81_2704 |
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drumbum68
Samba Member
Joined: October 15, 2010
Posts: 566
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| Good stuff Jeff! |
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AlteWagen
Troll
Joined: February 23, 2007
Posts: 8501
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Match dowel it with 11\32 dowels.
Dan |
Any good tutorials you could recommend? |
Match doweling is not for the novice. I believe modok is capable of doing this along with GBE. I have had bergs do many a crank and flywheel for me without any problems, much cheaper than wedgemate and almost as good. I will never again buy a new or used crank that I can not get the dowels out of the crank. I have been burned.
I have never done it but I understand well the advantages. Ray Vallero also did it but he is no longer with us. I believe the industry has dropped the ball on the drilling the two parts separately. Here is Bergs description of how it is done.
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=4_81_2704 |
Im getting ready to start another build, my RevMaster crank (old Bugpack) came with the dowels not installed so I thought this would be the best time to match dowel. How difficult is it to remove the flywheel compared to wedgemate?
Thanks
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Dan Ruddock
Samba Member
Joined: October 25, 2012
Posts: 3594
Location: Sarasota, in my adopted state of Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
| AlteWagen wrote: |
| Dan Ruddock wrote: |
Match dowel it with 11\32 dowels.
Dan |
Any good tutorials you could recommend? |
Match doweling is not for the novice. I believe modok is capable of doing this along with GBE. I have had bergs do many a crank and flywheel for me without any problems, much cheaper than wedgemate and almost as good. I will never again buy a new or used crank that I can not get the dowels out of the crank. I have been burned.
I have never done it but I understand well the advantages. Ray Vallero also did it but he is no longer with us. I believe the industry has dropped the ball on the drilling the two parts separately. Here is Bergs description of how it is done.
http://www.geneberg.com/cat.php?cPath=4_81_2704 |
Im getting ready to start another build, my RevMaster crank (old Bugpack) came with the dowels not installed so I thought this would be the best time to match dowel. How difficult is it to remove the flywheel compared to wedgemate?
Thanks |
It is easier than a wedge but you must pull the flywheel off straight and not rock it back and forth or you will damage the flywheel holes as they must stay tight to get the maximum hold. The idea is to not have any movement between the two parts because over time and high rpm the two will start to loosen up if the fit is not good and is down hill from there. It is not just drag race starts but it is also the parts moving against each other that is the problem. Berg does sell a puller to allow removal that pulls flywheel off straight.
Dan
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=14_3030&products_id=2909 |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3460
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:34 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| drumbum68 wrote: |
| Good stuff Jeff! |
Thank ya! Your ball bearing kit for the CB linkage is on there! |
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| jpaull wrote: |
| j-dub wrote: |
Great results and thanks for sharing jpaull. This kind of real world testing and sharing of results benefits all of us, it is also inspirational.
I wanted to ask about your leaning out at the top of the track, I am only asking as I am trying to learn. Seeing as the biggest restriction in the fuel system is likely the needle and seat, is it possible you only have a 1.5mm inlet valves and maybe you would benefit from 2.0 or larger? |
Good question. I will need to take a look at whats in there. They are whatever came in the stock Spanish 48 idf's. Thanks for the heads up, that's a good thing for me to check!
The fuel line through the tunnel is the stock 1/4 inch line, and with that tiny facet style pump its the first thing I need to upgrade. |
Just found the reference that I was looking for, this comes from How to build and power tune Weber and Dellorto
One choke per cylinder applications -
Up to 300cc per cylinder use a 1.50.
Up to 400cc per cylinder use a 1.75.
Up to 500cc per cylinder use a 2.00.
Up to 600cc per cylinder use a 2.25.
Over 600cc per cylinder use a 2.50.
_________________
1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3460
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:51 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| j-dub wrote: |
| jpaull wrote: |
| j-dub wrote: |
Great results and thanks for sharing jpaull. This kind of real world testing and sharing of results benefits all of us, it is also inspirational.
I wanted to ask about your leaning out at the top of the track, I am only asking as I am trying to learn. Seeing as the biggest restriction in the fuel system is likely the needle and seat, is it possible you only have a 1.5mm inlet valves and maybe you would benefit from 2.0 or larger? |
Good question. I will need to take a look at whats in there. They are whatever came in the stock Spanish 48 idf's. Thanks for the heads up, that's a good thing for me to check!
The fuel line through the tunnel is the stock 1/4 inch line, and with that tiny facet style pump its the first thing I need to upgrade. |
Just found the reference that I was looking for, this comes from How to build and power tune Weber and Dellorto
One choke per cylinder applications -
Up to 300cc per cylinder use a 1.50.
Up to 400cc per cylinder use a 1.75.
Up to 500cc per cylinder use a 2.00.
Up to 600cc per cylinder use a 2.25.
Over 600cc per cylinder use a 2.50. |
Very cool man, I appreciate you checking this out. I went out to the garage just now, pulled the carb apart and see that my Spain 48 idf's came from the factory with 200 inlets(2.0). I should be fine with those, as they should be ok up to 200 hp.
As with all things in these threads, its not all about me. This question/answer could benefit one of the many people out there reading this, because if they have 40/44 idf's, they do most likely have 150(1.5) in theirs, and if they are screamin down the quarter mile using up every last drop of gas in the float bowl towards the end, they should go to some 200's. |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:56 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| I've 2.25's in the 48 trijets , still to run a 1/4 but have no issues on dyno pulls from 3k to 7k .I'm 650cc a throat . |
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 865
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:10 am Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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My 48 DRLA tri-jets came with 3.00, way bigger than I ever need but they were in good shape so I used them.
Another trick is to let the float drop a bit more then normal spec to let the fuel come in faster if you are in a long wide open situation, however I found they can sometimes stick if they are allowed to drop too far so this must be checked.
Finally, it looks to me that the needle is the same regardless of the sized seat that is used. Can we not simply ream the seat up a size or two if needed since this is not as critical a calibrated orifice as the idle jet or air bleed?
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1957 Oval rag
"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3460
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Updating this thread:
I put 92 Thickwalls back in this engine. The 94s were pigs. I had to lap the cylinders to the heads as the 94s are thin enough to dig into the head a tad. Alstrup mentioned the lapping which helped remind me. The 92s i installed grant rings to replace the cheap aa rings. Seated nicely and broke in within just a few miles, almost zero blow by. Used a Brush Research ball/flex hone also.
Switched to a different street radial, and MCM Scott totally hooked up my transmission. I was suprised to find out as he took it apart that it had a early mainshaft and one of the not so great versions of a 4.12 R/P. He strengthend it up alot with a stronger Klinkenberg 4.12, 002 Mainshaft, 091 idler, Chromo Pinion retainer, Weddle 1.48 3rd gear and 1.14 fourth so the rpms are not as high as before(Previous 1.53/1.22). Now the torque of this engine is better used, and I dont have to up the cam to pull top end. I dont know any other vw transmission builder that would welcome me into his shop, tear the trans down, show me the parts that it has, and what it needs, then advise what really needs to be done. All i ever hear is the standard trans lingo, like superdiff, welded gears, hardend keys. How many of those come with a 002 mainshaft or stronger 091 idlers? Which version of a 4.12 to most get in their assembly line special?
Previously, I would run WITHOUT the belt for the extra power, and best time was 13.0.
Yesterday I ran a 12.8 @ 102.87mph with the fan belt ON. I also made a 1/8 mile best of 8.1 @ 83.7MPH.
Full weight bug, street tires, only .491 total lift, light beehive springs with 125lb on the seat and 250lbs at .491, 48 idf's with 38 vents, through the mufflers and with my cheap $150 1-5/8 header. 91 Octane AMPM gas, belt on, ported Mofoco heads. Zero Technology. Theres more in it too, With some more practice off the line there are a few tenths to gain.
Not fast compared to everything else out there. But for a Type 1 engine that was built with the idea of commuting to work and low stress parts, it feels good to me. I think alot of people running in the 12's have more then .491 lift, and using some drag radials or slicks, so its been a fun challenge to see how fast i can get it.
I would love to see some more quarter mile timeslips and videos, it really helps the internet BS factor. Nothing more annoying then people telling stories all day wtih zero proof, I try to lead by example with the hope others will follow. Flowbenches can lie, Dyno's can lie, but timeslips and video of the run give everyone that good feeling, and hopefully its more inspiring too.
Clip of the pass here:
https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Timeslip:
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Wow Jeff congratulations this is great new!!! Great job. It sounds like you have a beast of a transmission and MCMScott is the man when it comes to building these.
I like your 60 foot times - under 1.8 seconds! Your bug is now as quick or quicker than a lot of late model v8 powered cars. I'm pretty sure there are great things coming your way if you keep dragging down the quarter. |
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fl59bug
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2005
Posts: 1976
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:34 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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| Just watched the video clip - that thing is a rocket, sounds fantastic! |
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Wreck
Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2014
Posts: 1218
Location: Brisbane
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:47 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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It's 1/8 mile not quarter on the slip .
2600cc Ghia . 1090kg (2400lbs) with driver . dynoed the night before at 170WHP . without air filters and a megaphone ,with a tight fan belt .
Only did one run without filters and leaving at 5000rpm .road tyres. Yokohama A048's . clutch did not like it .
The rest of the meet I put the filters back on and took it easy off the line to save the clutch .
Jpaull , what does your bug weigh ? awesome job . proof don't need to wreck the car with a watercooled engine to have reliable power .
Last edited by Wreck on Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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stevemariott
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Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 1051
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:50 pm Post subject: Re: 1/4 Mile Results with Mild Stroker |
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Congrats!! Sounds great, and all on street tires! 
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