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Re: Wonky Syncro clutch “Solved”— Cross shaft bushing seized
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch “Solved”— Cross shaft bushing seized Reply with quote

Apologies for the long write-up, but I'm running out of hair on this one. And I’m really looking for all possible avenues before resulting to dropping the transaxle. Randomly, my Syncro just started having issues with the clutch not totally engaging and it’s a little bit sporadic just to aid my troubleshooting.

87 Synco westy with an EJ25L conversation 40k miles ago by PO. Receipts show new clutch kit at that time. I changed the slave and master last winter maybe 7k miles ago and also replaced the clutch hydraulic line with the Burley braided line. For some reason late this summer I reinstalled my stock hydraulic just for fun to see if it changed the clutch feel. (it didn't...) change it back to the Burley since this problem started but no change.

Van had sat for around a month and a few weeks ago jumped in to take the wife to lunch. Made it about two blocks and the clutch started to slip in first and second gear, then wouldn't engage at all. Pushed it out of the intersection, jumped back in and it was working again. Got it home and gave it a good bleed. No change. You can cycle the clutch 4-5 times and it feels normal. But then the pedal stops hard at 50%. Feels normal the first 0-50% but wont go past that. So I'm sitting in my driveway with the engine running, in 1st gear, clutch pedal out, scratching my head and about 15 seconds later clutch slowly engages and I drive forward.

Back up on jack stands it goes and I resulted to changing the master and slave cylinder thinking one of them must be sticking. Installed them the following weekend. No change. As I lay under my van and have my wife cycle the clutch pedal after 5-6 pumps, the pedal stops at 50% pressed. So as a result to this, when she cycles the clutch pedal 0-50% (because it won't go past 50%) the arm on the side of the transmission cycle 50-100% pressed. As I lay under there thinking wtf, (15ish seconds) the clutch arm on the side of the transmission very smoothly returns back to 0%, or fully engaged and pedal feels fine for a stroke or two. Also loosened and moved the master around to make sure there wasn’t any binding.

So kind of running out of things to try. Might just drop the transmission this weekend but thought I would throw it out there for input.

Thanks..
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40


Last edited by bsrad on Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had this trouble 1,000 miles from home.
Peices of broken spring came out of the disc and gummed up the works in the pressure plate.

Clutch dragging cant go into 1st (Morro Bay-broken disc springs)
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

On man Sodo I suppose that could be a possibility. I’ll have to read through those 6 pages for good reference. Looks like we have a very similar setup.
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1976 FJ40
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jberger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 1:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

If I'm reading correctly, your issue is the opposite of Sodo's. His clutch was dragging, yours is not engaging. Still may be a pressure plate issue though. If the PP tines are weak, it may not be enough to push the slave back where it belongs. If the arm is hanging at 50% are you able to manually push it back to its resting state? If so, how much effort does it take?

J
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

jberger wrote:
If I'm reading correctly, your issue is the opposite of Sodo's. His clutch was dragging, yours is not engaging. Still may be a pressure plate issue though. If the PP tines are weak, it may not be enough to push the slave back where it belongs. If the arm is hanging at 50% are you able to manually push it back to its resting state? If so, how much effort does it take?

J

Correct J. It’s certainly like it hanging up. I tried the test you suggested and with a bit of pressure I can push up the slave by hand, or even the clutch arm and slave by hand. What’s confusing is when it goes up by itself after sitting there for a while.
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1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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jberger
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

bsrad wrote:
jberger wrote:
If I'm reading correctly, your issue is the opposite of Sodo's. His clutch was dragging, yours is not engaging. Still may be a pressure plate issue though. If the PP tines are weak, it may not be enough to push the slave back where it belongs. If the arm is hanging at 50% are you able to manually push it back to its resting state? If so, how much effort does it take?

J

Correct J. It’s certainly like it hanging up. I tried the test you suggested and with a bit of pressure I can push up the slave by hand, or even the clutch arm and slave by hand. What’s confusing is when it goes up by itself after sitting there for a while.


I’d think you have a restriction in the line somewhere. New master, new slave, hose connection? Under foot pressure the fluid moves adequately.. but the pressure plate spring pressure is not enough to immediately force the slave up.

J
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

jberger wrote:
bsrad wrote:
jberger wrote:
If I'm reading correctly, your issue is the opposite of Sodo's. His clutch was dragging, yours is not engaging. Still may be a pressure plate issue though. If the PP tines are weak, it may not be enough to push the slave back where it belongs. If the arm is hanging at 50% are you able to manually push it back to its resting state? If so, how much effort does it take?

J

Correct J. It’s certainly like it hanging up. I tried the test you suggested and with a bit of pressure I can push up the slave by hand, or even the clutch arm and slave by hand. What’s confusing is when it goes up by itself after sitting there for a while.


I’d think you have a restriction in the line somewhere. New master, new slave, hose connection? Under foot pressure the fluid moves adequately.. but the pressure plate spring pressure is not enough to immediately force the slave up.

J


True. I was thinking some kind of blockage as well except when I push the slave up by hand the clutch arm somewhat says down.
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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MarkWard
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:08 am    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

The throw out bearing could be seizing on the hub it rides on. The crossshaft also has serviceable support bushings. Probably will end up pulling the transaxle to inspect.
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:42 am    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
The throw out bearing could be seizing on the hub it rides on. The crossshaft also has serviceable support bushings. Probably will end up pulling the transaxle to inspect.


Duly noted.. thanks for the input Mark. It’s coming out this weekend.
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1976 FJ40
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SyncroHead
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

bsrad wrote:
It’s coming out this weekend.


And.....?
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I have *no* idea what the previous owner carried in his Westy... angry donkeys?
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

SyncroHead wrote:
bsrad wrote:
It’s coming out this weekend.


And.....?


It's Out!!!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Cross shaft bushing seized to the shaft. I couldn't get the arm that goes to the slave off the shaft with my puller, or with the two trips to NAPA to get theirs and had to cut it into pieces to get out.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Looking like I was on the tailend of the clutch life anyway, so new clutch kit, cross shaft and bushing are on the way.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Got it all cleaned up and hoping to get everything back together by the end of next weekend.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Thanks again for everyones input on this. Any other suggestions of items to address while the transaxle is out?
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1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Its a good time to delete the front transaxle ground cable.

And replace it with a ground from the starter housing bolt on the bellhousing, directly to the van body.

thread: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground?

And.....ahem.... you could tip the trans forward so the oil drains forward,,,,,, and inspect the drainplug magnet.
And then perhaps tip it up steeply and drain it really, really well this time.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Its a good time to delete the front transaxle ground cable.

And replace it with a ground from the starter housing bolt on the bellhousing, directly to the van body.

thread: Transaxle ground strap - is this really the only engine ground?

And.....ahem.... you could tip the trans forward so the oil drains forward,,,,,, and inspect the drainplug magnet.
And then perhaps tip it up steeply and drain it really, really well this time.

Thanks Sodo!! Great idea on the trans fluid drain. That's on my annual winter to-do list anyhow. Certainly going to read up on the grounding to the starter. Question, which is off topic, but my PO hand my starter installed (stock bellhousing) with allen bolt heads, (saw yours were hex) and it was dang near impossible to get the top one off. Actually had to have the transaxle dropped 3-4" before I could get in there. Was thinking about changing them out to hex heads but didn't know if there was space for that plus the socket or box wrench to get in there. I know the "syncro starter replacement" is a whole nother topic..
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1976 FJ40
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Sodo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
you could tip the trans forward so the oil drains forward,,,,,, and inspect the drainplug magnet


How about this, as a contribution to Vanagon Science.

1) verify oil level is at the side plug with the trans "prefectly level".
2) tip the trans nose down (a lot). Remove the drain plug.
3) tip it back towards level until the oil level rises to the drain hole. Measure the angle of the transaxle with respect to "level".

This angle will tell your Vanagon brothers and sisters if its feasible to:

    park the van "nose downhill"
    and inspect the transaxle drainplug,
    without losing any oil.


Because the forward nose areas of the trans are different, there's probably different angles for 2WD and 4WD (and 5 spd).
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb


Last edited by Sodo on Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:57 am    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

There are 2 cross shaft bushings. Weddle sells a nice heavy duty bushing for the slave side of the bellhousing. The new cross shaft should be inspected in the weld area. I don’t trust the dribble welds that come on some replacements and will add some more weld to ensure an arm does not fail.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:14 am    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:
Sodo wrote:
you could tip the trans forward so the oil drains forward,,,,,, and inspect the drainplug magnet


How about this, as a contribution to Vanagon Science.

1) check the oil level at the side plug with the trans "prefectly level". Top it off, (if it's low).

2) tip the trans nose down (a lot). Remove the drain plug.

3) tip it back towards level until the oil level is jjust about to spill out the drain. Measure that angle.

This will tell us if it's feasible to park on a steep downhill (at this angle), and inspect the transaxle drainplug magnet without losing any oil.

Oh man that’s gotta be a steep angle, but I’ll see what I can come up with..
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1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

MarkWard wrote:
There are 2 cross shaft bushings. Weddle sells a nice heavy duty bushing for the slave side of the bellhousing. The new cross shaft should be inspected in the weld area. I don’t trust the dribble welds that come on some replacements and will add some more weld to ensure an arm does not fail.

Thanks Mark. I did order the Weddle heavy duty bronze bushing from them, (Will was extremely helpful) and the HD cross shaft from Van Cafe. Definitely going to confirm the welds of the shaft.
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1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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bsrad
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Sodo wrote:

How about this, as a contribution to Vanagon Science.

1) verify oil level is at the side plug with the trans "prefectly level".
2) tip the trans nose down (a lot). Remove the drain plug.
3) tip it back towards level until the oil level rises to the drain hole. Measure the angle of the transaxle with respect to "level".

This angle will tell your Vanagon brothers and sisters if its feasible to:

    park the van "nose downhill"
    and inspect the transaxle drainplug,
    without losing any oil.


Because the forward nose areas of the trans are different, there's probably different angles for 2WD and 4WD (and 5 spd).

Ok Sodo, here’s the data point you requested. These angles are set to where the gear oil is just slightly below the drain plug. Proper oil level was confirmed prior to measuring. The engine stand yoke measuring at 21.35 is the same as the face of the transaxle. Because of doing this I got to inspect my magnet.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Excellent, thanks!!
Vanagon wheelbase 98inches
98 x sine(21.35) = 36 inches (for a Syncro trans)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


28” tires.....this pic looks to be about 22 inches high.
Yikes another 14 inches......?
Well we know someone will do it, the Syncro fellers will.
They do that all night at Mogfest.
Or some of those crazy Portland 2WDrivers.

So if you can get the rear wheels 36 inches higher than the front, you can remove the drain plug.
Or if you can get close to 36”, the oil will come out “slower” and it would be easier to poke a fat finger in there.
Or a carrot 🥕 🥕 Wink
Or better yet, Pop it out and quickly insert your spare magnetic plug. ( They only cost $8 )
Then get out from under that dangling van and inspect it at leisure.
Order two magnetic plugs - put one in the filler hole too.

Bill thats a good lookin magnet!
Cuz its got lots of “clear surface”.
You don’t wanna see it covered.
Covered means either:
    your trans is dying
    or
    your transaxle is poorly maintained
    and/or
    Your Bearings have lost significant steel due to......
    drumroll.....
    sparkly steel dust in your lubricant for tens, 20s, 30s thousands of miles.


These vans are old, they need more attention.
Its kinda like the ol’ prostate gland isn’t it?
Remarkably similar, actually.
Sorry only you guys over 50y get that one...Wink
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'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Wonky Syncro clutch issue... Reply with quote

Ok, so I’m all back together but need some input. Everything seemed to go back together without a hitch but the pedal just isn’t quite right. I can only get about 1/2” off the floor and the clutch is fully engaged. I’ve bled and bled and bled with no difference. I know there is an adjustment at the pedal that goes into the master cylinder but I know there is supposed to be a certain amount of slack on the top of the pedal stroke.

Ideas? Thoughts? Suggestions?
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1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40
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