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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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 Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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Back story.
For a while I have been smelling gas when the tank was full and could not find any leaking from any of the gas tank seals. All were only a few years old. Lately when driving in the rain I noticed that I would get a misfire/rough running condition. On the way back from Bustoberfest this October it came back when we had to drive three hours home in the rain. Two hours into the trip the rough running was there going up hills. A can of HEET (isopropyl alcohol) cured it.
Certainly felt like water in the gas.
How can water get in the gas?
Bad gas from the pump. Not likely in my case since we filled up at the beginning of the day and the rough running did not start for two more hours.
Bad grommets on top of the gas tank. But even if that was the case not much water actually gets on top of the tank. And I had looked at them recently when trying to see where the gas smell was coming from.
Bad grommet on top of one or both of the two expansion tanks in the front wheel wells. I had also replaced those a few years ago when I did a tank reseal... but that was the only place left to look.
As I have mentioned to others with the same symptoms the expansion tanks are in a position behind the front wheels where a ton of water and debris gets thrown on top of them. If the grommet on top fails water and grit easily gets in the tank and is nicely drained into the gas tank by the two tubes coming off the expansion tank bottom.
The tank is removed by removing the 13mm nut off of the stud at the top of the wheel well and then wiggling the tank until it comes loose. Many times the road grit has somewhat locked it in place to the rear of the wheel well. Be careful not to break off the two lower nipples or crack the upper vent tubing when you loosen the tank.
Here is what I found when I dropped the tanks. Both looked like this.
The lower portion of the grommet had separated from the top portion and allowed the grommet to be totally free of the tank. Wonderful path for water and grit. And also allowing the gas vapor I was smelling to excape.
Here is the inside of the expansion tank.
I cleaned the tank insides with a wire brush and shook out all the debris. Since these grommets were not very old I now had no faith in the rubber that was being used and decided to glue the grommet back onto the expansion tank rather than replace the grommet. I used Goop since it adheres real well and stays somewhat flexible. YMMV.
They are now setting up in the garage and tomorrow I will remount the tanks. I am pretty confident that this will cure the issues I was having.
So if someone mentions that the fuel expansion tank grommets in the front wheel wells could be failing if your bus runs rough in the rain you know what they are referring to.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
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VdubVanner
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017
Posts: 734
Location: Cowtown AB
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| Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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Good fix. That grommet weakness/failure is something that even the new tanks could be vulnerable to: https://www.vancafe.com/251201303C-ALUM-p/251201303c-alum.htm . It probably wouldn't hurt to carry a couple of spares and some Goop.
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"Fritz", a temperamental and unforgiving 1989 Westy that proudly bears his German flags and status as a member of the exclusive GoWesty Belly Flop Club.
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32625
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Steve M.
Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 6832
Location: Fort Lauderdale, Fl.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 5:36 am Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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From experience the "Sea All" works!
It's one of "spates" I carry.
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VdubVanner
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2017
Posts: 734
Location: Cowtown AB
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Subject: Goop
1. Is Goop affected by gasoline and oil for 2 cycle engines?
Yes goop will break down by gasoline making it ineffective.
2. Is it affected by methanol and oil mix for 2 cycle engines?
Yes same as above, but we do make a product that is impervious too any petroleum products and it is called SEAL-ALL.
Dave |
Thanks for that! Gotta add Seal All to the spares box. In Canada, it's easy to find at a local Cdn Tire: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/seal-all-cement-adhesive-2-oz-0670808p.html#srp .
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"Fritz", a temperamental and unforgiving 1989 Westy that proudly bears his German flags and status as a member of the exclusive GoWesty Belly Flop Club.
1989 Westy Makeover: GoWesty 2.3L Engine plus plus plus https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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bobbyblack 
Samba Member
Joined: May 21, 2015
Posts: 4351
Location: United States, Iowa
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| Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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Thanks for the write up. I sure hope that is all that you've got wrong in terms of the rollover grommets being the source of water intrusion.. I have been experiencing (what seems to be) identical issues. I did pull my expansion tanks to review the work I did in summer of '18, as I too was super suspicious of the rollover grommets.
Unfortunately, that was not the source of my intrusion -- IF it is, in fact, a water intrusion at all in my case --
Another Dave suggested that stuff from TV where the guy cuts a boat in half.. Just in case I was simply not able to observer cracks in the expansion tanks, I used the clear spray version of that stuff. NOTE: don't spray the back side of the tanks, where they 'pop' into the body. Makes it nearly impossible even with a smear of grease to help it seat.
I bought one of those camera on a flexible cable thing, and filled my fuel tank to 105% of capacity.. I do see some fuel leaking on the top of the tank, so I will have to drop it to see what needs to be replaced, again.
Agreeing with DJKeev, new rubber seems to be poor quality-longevity. HOWEVER, I don't think it has do do with what we CAN make now, it has to do with the express intentions of manufacturers that actually WANT products to degrade and need replacement at some given length of time. NOT saying that any of our big vendors intend to have these products fail, but they only get to sell what is on the wholesale market, and that is what we end up with.
-bobby
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
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Location: Brookeville, MD
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mikemtnbike
Samba Member
Joined: March 26, 2015
Posts: 2796
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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Hi Dave!
What has time told?
Looking for something else (an annoying rattle that turned out to be a loose lower shock bolt, yikes, always double check torque folks!) I found a failed expansion tank grommet. Looks like the replacements I ordered won't be here before a trip this next week...hence, the question above.
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16503
Location: Brookeville, MD
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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| mikemtnbike wrote: |
Hi Dave!
What has time told?
Looking for something else (an annoying rattle that turned out to be a loose lower shock bolt, yikes, always double check torque folks!) I found a failed expansion tank grommet. Looks like the replacements I ordered won't be here before a trip this next week...hence, the question above. |
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So far so good. No water in the gas since. Drove 4 days thru thru rain in Feb.
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Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD
"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson
MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646
Building a bus for travel in Europe (euroBus)
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
The Western Syncro build
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=746794 |
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AZ Landshaper
Samba Member
Joined: February 08, 2009
Posts: 1698
Location: The Old Pueblo
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 3:13 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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Ive had the same issue. Resealed the maint tank and was cruising flawlessly until a rain storm. Drove through a few puddles and was quickly at a stand still w a very nasty misfire. Took me a while to realize but it was water/ rain in the tank. Water sinks to the bottom and thats where the tank pulls from. I installed a clear fuel hose from the tank to the pump and now can see if there are issues like water and or air in the fuel. Fixing the expansion tank gaskets was the true cure for what ailed me. Cheap fix too if you dont break the tank on the way in our out.
I did try some liquid/tube sealing solutions at one point. They didnt hold up. I suspect one of the two part deals might do the job but that shit isnt coming off and replacing the tanks is $$$. Doubt goop will be very effective. A half assed job always comes back to bite you in the ass.
Imagine it doesnt work. Your out there in the rain cruising along and then WHAMO! misfire city. cant even climb a small hill more less accelerate past 15mph. Traffic is piling up behind you as you instruct all non-handicapped passengers to get out and push. Embarrassment and stress city. " Next time we are taking my car honey. Im too old for this."
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tjet
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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Is this a common problem?
I was reading over another post, and they had the exact same issue.
Last edited by tjet on Wed May 27, 2020 4:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jlrftype7
Samba Member
Joined: July 24, 2018
Posts: 3580
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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I installed the aluminum Van Cafe exp. tanks. Once I dropped my stock plastic ones, I saw that my grommets were gone too on them, and I had dirt in the bottom of both tanks. With a light shining in them, the plastic is pretty cracked as well.
Once those alloy tanks and new seals and valves went in, they got a workout in very heavy rain on our road trip out of Texas. I was so glad it was buttoned up again down there in the wheel wells, since the storm front was so large that we stayed in the rain from Dallas until well into Missouri. My neglected stock system would have caused havoc on that part of the trip.... 
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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| tjet wrote: |
Is this a common problem?
I was reading over another post, and they had the exact same issue. |
Almost every expansion tank I take off the grommets for the "rollover valve" are failed.
I've mentioned this many times. I guess I've owned 8 Vanagons since 1990.
One guess as to why the new gaskets fail: Maybe they have ALL been produced back in the 1980's? Maybe all new OLD stock?
When started having problems I added a PRE filter NAPA metal filter for a Ford with 3/8 hose fittings. When it started plugging up, I'd (AT THE SIDE OF THE ROAD), clamp off the fuel tank line and just remove the filter and back wash it with aerosol. Usually WD 40 or Brakleen onto a white paper towel. I'd be amazed at the amount of rust but also SAND. WTF, sand? How does sand get into my tank?
I eventually concluded THEY ALL FAIL.
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4538
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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i used tank grommets scrounged from an 82 van when i did my tank.
not a great solution for all, but it is what i chose to do.
they are holding up fine for some years now.
i am using (and paying a premium for) more and more OE/NOS parts these days. just tired of having to do things twice and chasing problems that shouldn't exist.
i sealed the x-tank grommets with utra grey so when they fail as pictured, they are still sealed
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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| borninabus wrote: |
...just tired of having to do things twice and chasing problems that shouldn't exist.
.66666
i sealed the x-tank grommets with utra grey so when they fail as pictured, they are still sealed |
I hear you on that. Lot of stuff, even with European names just nothing like the OE parts that lasted decades.
I have a set of top ex tank grommets and 4 Vanagons that probably need that set.
I wonder if I could not just glue them in with Ultra or some other product. Not very difficult to rattle off the 13mm nut and check on the integrity.
But like someone said: Gasoline odor= bad sign.
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Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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Alan Brase
Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2004
Posts: 4532
Location: Cedar Falls, Iowa
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2020 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Water in gas, fuel expansion tank grommet fail |
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N90100501 is the part number, BTW, for the grommet on the top of expansion tank (rollover valve).
Can anyone determine the correct part number for the grommets on the BOTTOM of the early 1980ish tanks that used 5.5mm (?) steel tubing out instead of the dreaded plastic nipples?
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home |
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