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1969 squareback "Moose"
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:32 pm    Post subject: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Hey everyone, this is my "new" 69 square, Moose. I also own an orange 69 SB, Velma, but poor communication left her rusting in a Kansas backyard for 6 years while I was stationed overseas in England (Air Force). Just got stationed in California (again) and picked up this guy. Guys I got Moose from were great to deal with and upfront with the issues. While not currently running, really hope to have it going soon.
Super straight, almost no body rust. Pan is ok, but stored somewhere where moisture was setting in. Luckily seems like rescued at the right time. Interior was done probably 15 or so years ago, and still decent, just a little musty.
I hope to post regularly during this build up, as the main problem is a bent push-rod to replace and a FI system I have no clue about.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

welcome back
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Looks pretty decent, especially if the rust is not bad. Not too much molestation by POs, which is great news.

The FI will need the harness looked after or replaced, but that's not rocket science. It looks to be mostly there, which is a good start.

With a bent pushrod, check the rockers so you don't find it repeats. They don't bend by themselves.


Last edited by KTPhil on Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Agreed, looks mostly complete, and largely unmolested. Definitely check the engine over real good, and the FI stuff isn't that bad on a 69 (one of the best systems to have for reliability).
Welcome back, and Thank You for your service.
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 5:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Not much progress. Working 12 hour shifts doesn't leave much time for car work. Luckily, all our household stuff finally got here from the UK so now I have my tools. first order of business was the brake pads for the wife's mazda. Took care of that and had a few minutes to take care of some little things on Moose.
I started by freeing up the front seats. Both were siezed so I shot a little pb blaster on the latches and a little on the rails. A little wiggling and a good shove while sitting in the back seat and now they move. The driver's side stop pin doest exist so I almost ended up shooting it straight off the rails when it came loose. I've added the plastic seat track pieces to my list of things to buy.
On a sad but not unexpected note, I started pulling up the carpet and inspected the rust that had started to set in.
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The worst pan rust is on the rear passenger side under the battery and a bit forward. Rusted out completely for a good 8 inches or so.

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By my estimate, I should just need a rear quarter floor pan. Any suggestions for a shop near Fairfield, CA that could weld the new one in?

Since I have tomorrow off (holiday) I plan on getting started on the engine and see what else needs done so I can get it running. It's been six years since I was able to drive a VW and I'm eager to get on the road.
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Long day and a slow start. The good news is that the engine problem wasn't a bent push-rod, but leaking push-rod tubes. The PO had started on the 1/2 side and installed new seals and tubes. I pulled the rods and everything looked good. The 3/4 side had old rusty tubes and bad seals. I pulled the rocker shaft and rods (good) and struggled for a bit with the new tubes. The PO used two part quick tubes on the passenger side so I used the other four on the driver side. I'm using these for now to get the car running and op checked, but he did include a full set of one piece tubes that I'll install at some later date.
I didn't take too many pictures but did get a shot of the block and head stamps
Mexican block

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Don't know much about head stamps

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It seems that they started to pull the engine. Lots of disconnected wires. Right side heater pipe disconnected. I might also be missing some time. We'll see. Tomorrow is shooting wires and seeing what else needs replaced.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Hoffman wrote:
Long day and a slow start. The good news is that the engine problem wasn't a bent push-rod, but leaking push-rod tubes. The PO had started on the 1/2 side and installed new seals and tubes. I pulled the rods and everything looked good. The 3/4 side had old rusty tubes and bad seals. I pulled the rocker shaft and rods (good) and struggled for a bit with the new tubes. The PO used two part quick tubes on the passenger side so I used the other four on the driver side. I'm using these for now to get the car running and op checked, but he did include a full set of one piece tubes that I'll install at some later date.
I didn't take too many pictures but did get a shot of the block and head stamps
Mexican block

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Don't know much about head stamps

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It seems that they started to pull the engine. Lots of disconnected wires. Right side heater pipe disconnected. I might also be missing some time. We'll see. Tomorrow is shooting wires and seeing what else needs replaced.


Yup, Mexican case (might be universal), and Brazilian heads (the BR cast into them is the give away). They appear to be 040 heads.
Looks like it the case already has case savers, and 8mm head studs. Two things that are good I've found. Wink
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Tram wrote:
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Back in the garage, finally. I got the exhaust reinstalled. Found a rusted out spot on one of the heater tubes and put a temporary seal on it. I'll be on the lookout for a replacement. I think I've got all the electrical hooked back up.
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Found the injector connectors on the right side pretty much destroyed.
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I already have the replacement connectors. Just have to swap them out. They're vaguely D shaped, does the ground go on a certain side?
Any idea what this hole is for? (Center of pic)

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I also replaced the fuel filter, and adjusted the valves. I tried to start it, primed the pump, and had to hold the key and the pedal all the way for it to fire up. Now the problem is as soon as I release the key it dies. I'm getting spark and fuel because if I feather the key between start and run it stays running. From what I've been able to find, it's probably the ignition or the wiring. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 25, 2019 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Hoffman wrote:
Back in the garage, finally. I got the exhaust reinstalled. Found a rusted out spot on one of the heater tubes and put a temporary seal on it. I'll be on the lookout for a replacement. I think I've got all the electrical hooked back up.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Found the injector connectors on the right side pretty much destroyed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

I already have the replacement connectors. Just have to swap them out. They're vaguely D shaped, does the ground go on a certain side?
Any idea what this hole is for? (Center of pic)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I also replaced the fuel filter, and adjusted the valves. I tried to start it, primed the pump, and had to hold the key and the pedal all the way for it to fire up. Now the problem is as soon as I release the key it dies. I'm getting spark and fuel because if I feather the key between start and run it stays running. From what I've been able to find, it's probably the ignition or the wiring. Does it sound like I'm on the right track?


So far it all looks right from here. The biggest issue with the 68-69 FI is the injector grounds. They attach to the tin, and are notorious for loosing their connection. If you can find some toothed style washers (don't remember exactly what they're called) it'll improve your ground connections.

As for the hole in the case, that is something that started in late 71, early 72 for the VW computer diagnostic system, and was used to read crankshaft speed.

Yes, it does sound like either a flaky ignition switch (electrical side) or the wiring itself isn't connected right. It could be both. Double check you're wiring again first. In the technical section of this site (button in upper right of this page, click it and it'll default to type 2. Then bring up the list for type 3 and click on the diagram you need) is wiring diagrams for our cars (unless you have a brown Bentley). I'd double check that you have the red and the black wires connected correctly.
I hope his helps.
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Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Spent some time tracing wires. Seems like all the relays are clicking and wired. While double checking I found this:
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This mystery wire took sometime to figure out. I have the wiring diagram printed out, but it's not for the FI, so I had to dig through the Bentley. That diagram for 68-69 is very basic. Managed to pin it down to the wire that goes to the starter solenoid. Spent a good amount of time trying to find the male connector and came across this

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Only one connector for the ignition wire. Took a good amount of reading to find this in the Muir book

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So I have a non FI solenoid? I know the FI is picky, but would this really stop the car from staying running? Or is this non-essential. The solenoid isn't expensive so I'm planning on replacing it with an Fi one
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

I think that wire goes over to the ECU, and powers it during the start procedure (powers the ECU while the starter is running).
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Thanks for the tips, bobnotch, especially the toothed washers. That never would have occured to me.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
I think that wire goes over to the ECU, and powers it during the start procedure (powers the ECU while the starter is running).


That loose white wire hanging out by the starter does go to the ECU & Cold start valve/injector.

It will tell the ECU "i'm starting the engine now" in a way. That is its only purpose and is only active AS you are cranking the engine over. That's it.

So connect that up to the empty spade terminal on your starter solenoid. Which is weird as you should have two spade terminals on your starter solenoid. Maybe your starter was replaced at some point?
1 terminal for the ignition switch (when starting)
2nd terminal for the ECU FI signal wire.

ECU gets its power directly from the two blade terminals near the pressure sensor (which feed from the relay under the back seat)
1 terminal is ECU power.
2nd terminal is injector driver power.
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:11 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Mr. Duncan, the single spade had the ignition wire on it, I pulled it to feel around and get a clear picture of the solenoid.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Hoffman wrote:
Mr. Duncan, the single spade had the ignition wire on it, I pulled it to feel around and get a clear picture of the solenoid.


You should have two spades.

You could add an adapter to expand it to two.

Also, every 2 inches or so the WHITE FI harness wires will have a small number printed in black on them.

See if you are able to get that number off the white wire hanging back there just to be 100% sure this should terminate to the starter solenoid signal wire.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Looks good 69 is a good year first year for IRS rear suspension , not that the swing axle was bad and last year of the better looking hood profile and tail lights with class and nicer bumpers. Plus you have the 4 speed trans. You car looks straight and the pan rust even though not a pleasant factor not as bad as many are.

I have only seen one here all redone like new. I don't see many type 3 at all.

My 73 has no rust and was perfect until 2012 had it since 1985 then some red light runner caught my right ft bumper guard and even though it was fixed things don't line up as nice as before then in 2015 my left rear fender was pushed in, in a parking lot got new replacement yet it's still sitting in my garage. I just pulled it out with a plunger and ignore the small waves.

Someday I will replace it and see if I can improve the hood/fender alignment. If I were still young it would have been done by now.

You just need 25 feet of fuel line runner hoses head gaskets and vacuum hose probably a new engine harness and a floor section maybe have the injectors rebuilt or new ones. You will need to check that out later. Mr Duncan used some what appear to be good replacement push rod tubes where you don't need to pull the heads.

You'll have a nice car with a bit of time and work and have fun with it.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Mr.Duncan wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
I think that wire goes over to the ECU, and powers it during the start procedure (powers the ECU while the starter is running).


That loose white wire hanging out by the starter does go to the ECU & Cold start valve/injector.

It will tell the ECU "i'm starting the engine now" in a way. That is its only purpose and is only active AS you are cranking the engine over. That's it.

So connect that up to the empty spade terminal on your starter solenoid. Which is weird as you should have two spade terminals on your starter solenoid. Maybe your starter was replaced at some point?
1 terminal for the ignition switch (when starting)
2nd terminal for the ECU FI signal wire.

ECU gets its power directly from the two blade terminals near the pressure sensor (which feed from the relay under the back seat)
1 terminal is ECU power.
2nd terminal is injector driver power.


Except his engine doesn't have the cold start system. The 69's that did get it, got an add on "5th injector", and would be installed in the end plate of the IAD. He also doesn't have the timer/CS thermoswitch on the case either. It's part of the reason the 68-69 system is so bullet proof, less parts equal reliability.

Oh, and the "toothed" washers are a suggestion from Jim Adney, as they keep the grounds tight (he has them on his own 68 Square).
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
"Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives."
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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Hoffman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

It's been a long wait on parts and free time, but finally got back to Moose. Found this
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Don't see any evidence of shorting. Replaced the coil, plug wires and ignition switch. I followed ktphil's thread to replace the switch, the old switch self destructed while I was taking it out.

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German made and VW marked. Original?
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I spliced the new wires to the old harness temporarily to test everything

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I turned the key, much tighter feel, and got the Gen light which hadn't been coming on previously. Cranked it...and nothing. Cycled the key and couldn't hear the fuel pump. Double checked my wires and fuse block but everything looked good. Tried my lights, everything came on. Cranked it again and.....SWEET JUJUBES WE HAVE IGNITION!
The wife happened to be stepping into the garage just as Moose fired up and we both started grinning like fools. Still a little rough sounding. Next I'm going to look for leaks because I'm pretty sure I heard something sucking air and she doesn't idle very long without blipping the peddle.
Tomorrow the plan is to double check my valves and timing, run through the brakes, and shifter. The shifter feels extra loose. The PO changed the coupler at some point, but maybe not the bushing. With a little more work Moose will be back on the road and I can start on less critical things like the radio and door seals
On a sad note, while taking the seat out I discovered that the front few inches of each seat rail broke off. What's the success rate for welding these back on?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Congrats on getting it fired up and running. Cool You might have to do a little fine tuning, but I bet the longer it runs, the better it'll get. Seems that happens to a lot of cars that just sit for a while.

As for the seat rail tip, you'll want to move as much carpet out of the way, before welding it back on. Maybe try and put a bevel on the ends, and leave a slight gap between the 2 parts before welding it on (it'll need to be ground afterward). I've never personally seen the metal tip break off like that before, but that's how I would fix it (what I said above).
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1969 squareback "Moose" Reply with quote

Good looking lower repair sections for the rear seat bulkhead for $70.
He's also fabbing new hinge pedestals that someone requested!

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2334075
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