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Auto tranny turbine question
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:16 am    Post subject: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

So I got the turbines seated properly "I think" however I'm not sure if they are supposed to be able to turn/spin by hand. In my bad tranny they do spin with much resistance I can feel it turning gears and in this supposedly good used tranny/diff they are not turning.
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PRND2L
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

The thin shaft in the centre is the hydraulic pump shaft. It travels through the entire diff/trans to the front where the pump is located. It should spin freely.

The large outside splined shaft is the torque converter mounting shaft with the torque converter seal just outside of it. It is fixed and does not spin.

Just inside the torque converter mounting shaft is the main turbine shaft. It should also spin but it will be more difficult to spin as it spins the transmission internals. The turbine shaft travels through the diff portion but is not connected to it.

You have them seated properly as well!

edit : Don't pull the turbine shaft out! It can be pulled a few inches out but doing so will unseat the oil rings on the far end of the shaft. You can pull the pump shaft all you want as it doesn't have any oil rings. Just make sure to seat it down to where the spline ends are hidden; just like you have it.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

So the thin shaft/hydraulic pump shaft and the main turbine shaft are not turning... does this mean this tranny that I was sold is bad and needs taken apart?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

There thin pump shaft must turn. Maybe not by hand on a transmission that has been sitting dry, but certainly with a pair of pliers on the end. The pump has steel parts and could seize. The turbine shaft will be a little more difficult to turn because it’s is down where you can’t grab it.

There is a recent thread “building a better automatic” or something close to that is chock full of info and pictures. I would not go through the fire drill of installing it as is. I’d be inclined to tear it apart and rebuild it. I have those skills though. Hope you got a good deal. I sold a working automatic out of my 90 for $400 here on samba. That’s basically core value.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 8:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

Being as careful as I could be I was able to get the pump shaft to turn using pliers!! I’m going to go forward and install the tranny this weekend. I will let you all know how it goes... when installing the tranny anybody have any tricks as it’s crazy heavy and balancing on a jack can be tricky. Getting everything lined up looks like it could also be difficult.
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 22, 2019 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

Buy, borrow, or rent a tranny jack or if such isn't available an ATV or snowmobile jack.

Once you install the torque converter the pump shaft and turbine shaft should turn easily enough. If you are worried that your "new" tranny might not be any good, the pull the pans off the two boxes and see what they look like inside. Good time to seal them up anyway, do change or at least clean the filter in the tranny.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

Wildthings Yes I did buy a new filter/gasket for the tranny pan and I also got the cork gasket for the differential pan. As far as opening it up I figured it would be easier to change those once installed but if you advise doing so before hand tipping it up shouldn’t be problem as that’s what I had to do to get the center turbine aligned. As far as what I’m actually looking at inside I’ll be a little clueless. I left the torque converter installed as the tranny I got didn’t come with one.. are you advising I dismount the torque converter and install on the pump shaft of the tranny first and then lift up??
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

kwalker303 wrote:
Wildthings Yes I did buy a new filter/gasket for the tranny pan and I also got the cork gasket for the differential pan. As far as opening it up I figured it would be easier to change those once installed but if you advise doing so before hand tipping it up shouldn’t be problem as that’s what I had to do to get the center turbine aligned. As far as what I’m actually looking at inside I’ll be a little clueless. I left the torque converter installed as the tranny I got didn’t come with one.. are you advising I dismount the torque converter and install on the pump shaft of the tranny first and then lift up??


You want the tranny standing on end to install the torque converter, as it is just plane easier to do. Yes you can do it with the tranny horizontal, but you might accidentally pull the pump shaft or turbine shaft out of place while you repeated try to get the splines to align. Stand it on end and let gravity help you keep the shafts in place. Make sure that you wire the TC in place so you can't accidentally have is come off during install.

Personally I would pull the pans before I put the tranny into place so that I would know what thing look like inside. I once bought a used gear box from a dependable shop and pulled the pans off before installing it. I found water and water damaged bearings inside the differential section. Apparently the shop had decided to pressure wash the exterior of the transaxle before I picked it up and this allowed water to get inside. Had I installed it and then pulled the pans, I would have had to do that much more work over again. You can just use stacks of blocks to support the tranny off the ground in order to give room for a drain pan when removing the pans from the two boxes.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

Wildthings
So I pulled the torque converter tonight and also went with your suggestion and changed the cork gasket on the diff, wholly shit that old gasket was on there I had to take a knife to it to get of fully off! I’ll do the tranny gaskets tomorrow and see if I can get help to jack it up and connect it. Here’s a pic of the differential, looks good to me however not really sure what I’m looking at. Everything was stationary, I tried to turn the gears to no avail.

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 23, 2019 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

The wear on the ring gear looks normal from what I can see. One thing you might consider doing is resealing the gear box while you have it out of the car. There are several seals that separate the ATF and the gear oil that need to be periodically replaced. The cost of the seals is minor, and the labor is not excessive, but you have to fully disassemble the final drive section of the gear box to get at the one seal. This means you have to punch mark the bearing adjusting screws for the side bearings and so you can get them back exactly where they started. Not really very hard to do, but some might find the procedure intimidating.

Besides the seals in the differential section you should consider replacing the Torque Converter seal.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 7:38 am    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

She’s ALIVE!!! Haven’t taken off the jack stands yet but started her up last night and the wheels are a turning!! I went with the external atf cooler from small car and I was reading in some other forums that a dry fill is 6.3 qts atf so I added 4 and then checked the dipstick and wholly hell its high on the stick. Does it need to run for awhile to get thru the external cooler system and such to level off so I can add the remaining or did I add too much?? Bentley says to check fluids once warm and says refill is 2.5 qts but I’d hate to warm up the system with wayyyy to much atf.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

If your torque converter was fairly dry it will take a lot of oil to fill, as will any added lines. There is a reason the say to check it hot and running.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

Need some tips on mating the trans to the engine. Automatic***

Ok so it appears that i didnt get the tranny seated fully onto the engine. Ive been pulling/wiggling/pushing it into place but i am having a hell of a time doing so. I can only get the drivers side bolt on the bottom half way on and i dont want to toque it on stripping the bolt. this is an auto tranny so if anyone has any suggestions how to align the tranny to engine to get it seated fully it would be greatly appreciated.
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kourt
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

I usually have to use two jacks for mating the transaxle and engine. One is a bottle jack under the engine (with a block of wood in between the two) to help change the angle of the engine so that the forward end of the engine is angled slightly downward. That sets up a good mating angle for the transaxle, which would also need a jack under it (again with a block of wood distributing the force).

I also built a cheap hoist out of 2x4 and a motor boat winch from Amazon, which helps if you are working solo. This photo shows the hoist being used with a Bostig, but it works the same way with a boxer engine.

kourt

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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

kwalker303 wrote:
Need some tips on mating the trans to the engine. Automatic***

Ok so it appears that i didnt get the tranny seated fully onto the engine. Ive been pulling/wiggling/pushing it into place but i am having a hell of a time doing so. I can only get the drivers side bolt on the bottom half way on and i dont want to toque it on stripping the bolt. this is an auto tranny so if anyone has any suggestions how to align the tranny to engine to get it seated fully it would be greatly appreciated.


The number 1 most important thing is to make sure the torque converter is properly mounted to the transmission. If the shafts in the transaxle are not properly seated then the TC can not be mounted correctly and you will not be able to get the engine and transaxle to mate. The TC should be somehow wired to the transaxle until the engine is mated, or it is very likely to come off the splines. Assuming everything is okay with the shafts and TC then the rest of the mating for an automatic should be very easy. The only aligning that needs to be done besides the bolts, is the pilot of the TC needs to mate into the bore on the crankshaft, this usually goes very easily.
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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

I’m going to guess the torque converter isn’t seated all the way because I have pulled and pulled and raised and lowered the jacks to all sorts of angles. I’m having a hell of a time with this. When I got it originally mounted and started the engine I noticed leaking from the torque converter so I’m thinking that’s probably it. Attached is a pic of the bottom bolt as that’s the furthest I can get it to mount..

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kwalker303
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

So I think I’m going to drop the tranny and remount the torque converter and might as well change the seal while I’m at it. Is there a way to know when you have the tc fully seated in place?? The last time I did it I stood the tranny up and I thought I got it fully in and I used tie wire to hold it back but I obviously failed
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:51 am    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

kwalker303 wrote:
So I think I’m going to drop the tranny and remount the torque converter and might as well change the seal while I’m at it. Is there a way to know when you have the tc fully seated in place?? The last time I did it I stood the tranny up and I thought I got it fully in and I used tie wire to hold it back but I obviously failed


Check the Bentley manual. I think there is some spacing that should be evident between the TC and the flexplate? something like 3/8 inch? I may be wrong. I don't have the Bentley with me and my memory isn't great. The pdf I have for the 010Jetta 3 speed says to twist it clockwise and counterclockwise to seat it. Do not rock it. Youtube videos for the automatic say there are 3 clicks to seat it but I could only seem to get 2. The third might be really vague. Then the trick I guess is to keep it seated while you do the install.
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CarlSpackler
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

The ej25 in my '91 westy locked up a few months ago and I've been building a new engine for it. I'm ready to install, but can't get the turbine shaft seated to install the torque converter. Do I need to pull the transmission and stand it on end to get that shaft back in place? Can I just separate the transmission from the final drive a bit and push that shaft up while pressing in?
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:40 am    Post subject: Re: Auto tranny turbine question Reply with quote

CarlSpackler wrote:
The ej25 in my '91 westy locked up a few months ago and I've been building a new engine for it. I'm ready to install, but can't get the turbine shaft seated to install the torque converter. Do I need to pull the transmission and stand it on end to get that shaft back in place? Can I just separate the transmission from the final drive a bit and push that shaft up while pressing in?
Any picture to show how far out your shaft is from the Trans? Or basic meaurement?
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